Bucks Fans Like Josh Howard

by Wes Cox on May 1, 2008 2:31 PM CDT in Trades

The Bucks blog Brew Hoop has a post up today saying the Milwaukee should be making a play for the seemingly available Josh Howard.

He proposes a Stackhouse and Howard for Redd trade and thinks it could make sense for both teams. The Bucks save some money and Dallas gets a serious offensive threat to to play next to Dirk.

Overall, the chance to add a player of Howard's abilities while also helping mitigate future luxury tax concerns would seem hard to beat at this point, unless Hammond and Skiles think they can get more out of Redd by keeping him. Unfortunately, Redd's legacy in Milwaukee might make that difficult. While there's no doubt that Redd's scoring would be missed, at $17 million per season he simply isn't good enough to carry a franchise, a burden he wouldn't have in Dallas.

Anyway, it's a good read and nice to see that while Mavs fans may be down on Howard right now, he's still valued around the league -- at least by fans.

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Josh

Is it too late for him to redeem himself? Should he be given the chance to?

by Marie on May 1, 2008 3:12 PM CDT 0 recs

It's gotta be too late...

I’d be absolutely shocked if he played another game in Dallas…

by N41D on May 1, 2008 10:18 PM CDT up 0 recs

I think he should be given a chance.

A knew coaching staff could do wonders for the kid. He had a bad season, but so did the whole team. Plus we’d be essentially be selling low on him if we traded him. I don’t really see the Bucks going for this, but I admittedly don’t know the team all that well.

by MeanMr.Mustard on May 1, 2008 10:46 PM CDT up 0 recs

*new

I need an edit button.

by MeanMr.Mustard on May 1, 2008 10:46 PM CDT up 0 recs

What do you guys think?

Thanks for the link, Wes. Definitely curious to see how Mavs fans feel about moving Josh. It sounds like Artest and Maggette could also be possibilities.

A month ago I would have assumed the Mavs would have no interest in this sort of offer, but it just seems like J5 and Redd could both use a change of scenery at this point. Because of Redd’s contract, there are very few teams that could make a good offer for him, but the Mavs would seem to be one of them. And while I think the Bucks will be more interested in shopping Mo Williams, I doubt Hammond/Skiles could pass up the chance to swap Redd for a more versatile guy with a more reasonable price tag.

www.BrewHoop.com

by Frank Madden on May 1, 2008 3:21 PM CDT 0 recs

I had

blurted out the word “DONE!” by the time I finished reading the second sentence here. Done, done and done. Somebody fire up the fax machine and send the paperwork to the league office.

I’m not excited at all about Artest, and a little hesitant about Maggette- but I’d be totally willing to listen to offers (I’m also about to graduate and be ready for employment, if Donnie Nelson is reading anywhere…)

by BrodyV on May 1, 2008 4:28 PM CDT up 0 recs

100% for it

I would do it in a heartbeat. I think it makes a lot of sense for both teams.

by jthig32 on May 1, 2008 7:09 PM CDT up 0 recs

I'd do it

I really feel Josh wants to be traded. He can’t be dumb enough to go on-air hours before a game to discuss his off-season hobby, and then distribute flyers in the locker room – of all places – when the coach explicitly banned parties during the playoffs. If he’s not going to be happy here, then by all means trade him before he continues to act up and slowly destroy the locker room.

Dallasbasketball.com has this completely ridiculous quote from Josh:

"They went up and just hit the side of the rim or went in and out,’’ Josh said, truly incredulous at being asked these absurd questions. "You can’t control what the ball do. It’s crazy, man. Y’all hilarious.’’

What? You can’t control what the ball do? Sure you can. In fact, if you get closer to the rim instead of standing around the 3-point line, you can do a better job of controlling what the ball “do”.

by dirk41 on May 1, 2008 10:39 PM CDT up 0 recs

J-HO

I love Howard, but I’m not sure he fits in a running style based around Kidd. The Mavs can’t trade Kidd so that means Howard has to go.

Derek

Signature! I don't need no stinking signature!!

by DerekSTheRed on May 1, 2008 3:32 PM CDT 0 recs

Why couldn't they trade Kidd?

He has a monster expiring contract next year which is attractive to teams looking for relief.

Is there something contractual with Kidd that prevents him from being traded that I’m not aware of?

by DitchThePlaybook on May 2, 2008 1:17 PM CDT up 0 recs

Reasons

I think Dirk wants to play with him for a full year and I would rather have the expiring contract if things don’t work out next season. I also don’t think most teams want to trade for Kidd right now (maybe before the trade deadline during next season but now right now). He’s shown that if he’s not happy, he’ll tank.

Derek

Signature! I don't need no stinking signature!!

by DerekSTheRed on May 2, 2008 1:37 PM CDT up 0 recs

HEY!

I proposed this deal yesterday.

Brandon Webb, do I need to say more?

by srdmad on May 1, 2008 5:22 PM CDT 0 recs

You sir are a God!

by Sky Hook on May 1, 2008 6:23 PM CDT up 0 recs

I know

Thanks.
If you need info on the Bucks, I’m your man.

Brandon Webb, do I need to say more?

by srdmad on May 1, 2008 6:29 PM CDT 0 recs

I’m sorry, but this is not a trade I would like.

The only way this team is going to progress is if they build around Bogut. Mr. Self-High-Five is going to need to become a leader on the team for it to work. Howard and Stackhouse are the respective leaders of the Mavs (I don’t care what anyone says about Dirk; he couldn’t lead a pickup game), and bringing them here would completely undermine Bogut’s development as a leader.

I’m all for trading Redd; he just doesn’t seem to fit here. And talent-wise, this idea is fair. But I just don’t think this is the answer.

P.S. Sorry about the playoffs, Mavs fans. Chris Paul couldn’t be stopped.

by Mitchell_M on May 1, 2008 7:57 PM CDT 0 recs

Um, no.

I’m going to say this as respectfully as possible, as I know it’s easy to get the wrong impression of things when you don’t follow a team closely.

Josh Howard is about the last player that would ever be a leader, ESPECIALLY on this team. Stack considers himself a leader, and maybe he is a bit. But he’s a grizzled vet leader, not really the alpha male leader.

Trust me when I say this: Dirk is much, MUCH closer to be something resembling a leader than Josh ever will be. If nothing else, Dirk leads by example by working as hard as humanly possible at being an NBA player.

by jthig32 on May 1, 2008 8:41 PM CDT up 0 recs

I can respect that. I admittedly don’t follow the Mavs all that closely, I get my info from whatever the national media gives us.

My claim of Dirk not being a leader is based mainly on his playoff performance over the last 3 seasons. Sure, he’s a great player, hard worker, all that good stuff. But he’s the best player on his team, and he can’t get them to win (so far)

Or am I mistaken about this, and the real problem lies in the system the team is/was playing with? Will the Mavs fortunes change now that control-freak Avery Johnson is out of the picture?

-- "I do know that I plead the fizzif."

by Mitchell_M on May 2, 2008 12:13 PM CDT up 0 recs

Wow

It’s nice to see a fan from another team who isn’t willing to simply just bash a team that they don’t really follow closely (I’m not being sarcastic). All too often, others fans are satisfied with whatever they can glean from national coverage and not the team’s local media.

by Marie on May 2, 2008 12:59 PM CDT up 0 recs

completely co-sign previous statement, no way could j5 be considered anything close to a locker room leader. not saying dirk is the alpha-male, but he’s closer than josh will ever be, he’s just not that type of player/person.

i love josh, but its a lot like the avery situation – our partnership seems to have run its course and both parties could benefit from a change. since he stopped slashing and playing defense, howard has never been an ideal fit in avery’s system. i’m very open to trading him this summer, and redd would be a nice piece.

but don’t you guys think we might be able to get a better deal? marion is a FA this sumer, and miami might be open to a sign and trade… imagine kidd running the break with matrix, dirk, jet and bass filling the lanes. that’s fucking scary.

by bass_the_beast on May 1, 2008 9:29 PM CDT 0 recs

The last thing the Mavs need...

Is to further deplete the bench…

Granted, it’d be nice to get out from under either Stackhouse’s or Terry’s contracts, but going 2-for-1 on a bench that’s already a little short doesn’t make a ton of sense…

It’s something I’d think about, but I’d really think we’d need to get another player to make this thing work…

by N41D on May 1, 2008 10:21 PM CDT 0 recs

We have money.

We can easily get a new bench.

Brandon Webb, do I need to say more?

by srdmad on May 1, 2008 10:38 PM CDT 0 recs

The luxury tax hit would have to be phenomenal....

Paying Dirk, Kidd and Redd superstar money? I’d be a little surprised if Cuban went for this.

by MeanMr.Mustard on May 1, 2008 10:44 PM CDT 0 recs

So Josh Howard

is still liked by a bunch of Buck fans who may or may not be a bunch of dumb-dumbs.

Sweet.

I hope their new GM shares their sentiments and deals us Redd and a second round draft pick for Josh and Stack. I’d do that deal in about a second, flat.

"If we where [sic] gonna trade them Salty, I would want a helluva lot more than just Joba though." -lonestarJon

by thedirkatron on May 1, 2008 10:59 PM CDT 0 recs

A full second?

Really? Cause I’m thinking Pico-Seconds here.

by BrodyV on May 1, 2008 11:01 PM CDT up 0 recs

WHOA WHOA WHOA...

Just because this is a good deal, is yet ANOTHER jump shooter to play along side dirk and Jet what we really need? I dont know, maybe I am crazy cuz I am not gun-ho on this soon to be 30 year old who is known for having a supposed sweet shot, but his percentages are only marginally better (+5%-ish) than Josh’s. Josh’s biggest knock on here was that he went away from the basket, our biggest knock on JET is his streaky shooting…

Well folks, I am afraid it doesnt get more streaky than a guy like Redd. Never mind if he is a leader or not, IMO thats the last thing we need. (too many ego’s = problems)

And what of his defense? Is he the lock down defender like Josh CAN be when he wants too? And if not, then who do we bring in to shut down the ever lasting problem that we have at shutting down the 2/3 guys in this league? I just dont know…

At 15 mil+ a year, there seems to be a lot of guys other than Redd that could bring it on both ends…. preferably a SLASHER on the offensive end, and some what of a top defender on the defensive side.

If its a shooter we are going after, then JET needs to be the one involved in that deal, because if we get someone who can shoot as well as JET, but has a bigger body to defend, (like Redd), then its worth us looking at. But if we get a shooter for Josh to play with a team FULL of jump shooters and no Harris to attack the rim… Mavs=Screwed yet again.

by Toddy on May 1, 2008 11:43 PM CDT 0 recs

+1

Completely agree. I don’t see the Mavs doing this unless there’s also a course of action to move JET. Not only b/c JET/Redd are pretty much one in the same, but to lessen the luxury tax blow. Cuban will spend $ but he’s not an idiot.

by Avery210 on May 2, 2008 9:20 AM CDT up 0 recs

A few counterpoints

First of all, on the notion that Redd is nothing but a jumpshooter; 29% of Redd’s shot attempts this season came from “inside” as opposed to 21% from Josh.

FT attempts are largely considered a measure of how aggressive a player is, correct? Josh average 5.1 FTA per game this season, a career high. Redd average 6.8 FTA per game this season, which was down from the previous seasons. The lowest FTA per game average Redd has ever had since becoming a full time starter is 5.4.

Finally, on the notion that Redd is only a marginally more effecient scorer than Josh due to their percentages being so close, I say this:

Let’s put Redd on the Mavs, let him play off of Dirk as the secondary scorer. Let’s put Josh on the Bucks and let him be the primary offense for that team.

Now, how do you think the shooting percentages and overall efficiency will look?

People’s shooting percentages and PER pretty much automatically go up when they come play next to Dirk.

by jthig32 on May 2, 2008 1:23 PM CDT up 0 recs

ok

Sorry I was not trying to break down a comparison of Josh vs Redd… If his FTA are more than Josh’s, then that’s really not a big surprise to me because Josh never WENT to the basket. My point with this being that if we trade JET… we should go after a bigger shooter, because thats what we need. If we trade JOSH, then we go after a slasher because thats what we need. We dont need a team of slashers who cant shoot, and a team of shooters who WONT drive. Have we not learned this from Stack, Josh, Finely and Walker to name a few?

But one thing you pointed out here…

Redd average 6.8 FTA per game this season, which was down from the previous seasons

Have you noticed that ALL his numbers are going down? Isnt he the MAN on that team right now as the number one option? What makes US (because I still am up in the air about this) think that his numbers will automatically go up when he gets here? Josh’s have consistently gone up over the years, right? Well then why are we so hard on him right now? Personal issues aside, its because he wont get to the rim any more, which is what I feel like most of us (fans and team) want/need for us to be successful.

Did Kidd’s %’s and PER go up when he got here? Yeah a little, but break that down a little further and what were the shots attempted vs shots made. Are they the same? I believe he is worse now than when he was on the Nets IMO because Dirk carried a heavier load when Harris left on the offensive end. So while Kidd’s %’s may (or may not, I dont know) have gone up when he got here with his rebounds and assists maybe staying the same, but his points were only slightly down, I think his PER rating is a mis-leading. (if that makes sense) Because like the rest of the team and bc of the offense we played, we passed the ball to Dirk even more and WATCHED him carry us, it lessened the shots taken by the rest of the team because Dirk was so willing to make the kidd trade work.

Kidd also needs someone who cuts to the rim… again having all shooters and no threat to cut to the rim is not what is going to make Kidd work IMO. He needs a VC/RJ to be running the floor and getting to the basket… along with shooters as well who can knock down the shots. Now if Redd comes here and gets to the rim, and becomes someone who is good at CONSISTENTLY attacking the basket rather than settling for the J, I think he is a hands down great pick up… I just dont think he is.

by Toddy on May 2, 2008 6:12 PM CDT up 0 recs

Ok

I agree that if you trade Josh for Redd you have to have a move that follows that. Redd is a SG, not a SF. But if Josh for Redd is on the table, you take it and work out the details later, imo, because Redd is just a significantly better player than Josh.

I’m a bit confused about your point on the effect of playing with Dirk. Yes Kidd’s shots attempted went down once he got here. But his shooting percentage (particularly his three point percentage) skyrocketed because of the attention Dirk receives. That’s my whole point, people get easier shots and are asked to carry less of a load on this team. Go look at Terry’s shooting numbers across the board with Atlanta, and look what happened IMMEDIATELY when he got to Dallas. It is literally like he became a different player. So my point is that Redd’s shooting percentage and overall efficiency would rise playing on this Mavs team and Josh’s would plummet if he were asked to play the alpha dog role in an offense.

As far as getting to the rim, I agree we need more slashers. But as I pointed out, Redd is not the spot up shooter you might think he is. Attemping almost 30% of your shots from “inside” meaning in the paint, I believe (from 82games.com) is a significant number.

In a dream world I would do the Josh trade and then turn around get someone like Corey Maggette, sending out Terry plus something else. I agree with you that just trading Josh for Redd would not make a workable lineup.

by jthig32 on May 2, 2008 6:48 PM CDT up 0 recs

to best honest

I really havent watched Redd play that much, and picture him more as a Ray Allen-type pure shooter. That was my question in bring up this argument of “well this is a good deal, but does it help our TEAM if we do it?” But I appreciate the imput, because I really havent followed Redd at all since he left to Milwaukee.

So if Redd is not JUST the spot up shooter, aka a larger version of JET, and he attacks the rim a little more than I thought, then I think that this deal makes a little more sense for Josh.

I just hate giving up Josh, when his value is so low. That’s not the rule of investing (sell high, buy low) and its why I think Bass and Jet would be easier to trade bc they are coming off really good performances. We cant sign BASS for any significant amount of money after this next year, and JET will always have his up’s and downs, maybe there is something better out there who is a little more proven/consistent… Dont ask me who, because I think its still too early too tell who is until the playoffs finish.

by Toddy on May 2, 2008 9:01 PM CDT up 0 recs

I like the trade, but only if we get someone defensively at sf.

Brandon Webb, do I need to say more?

by srdmad on May 2, 2008 10:39 PM CDT up 0 recs

Garnett-Pierce, Nash-Amare, Duncan-Manu, Paul-West, Kobe-Gasol, Dirk-?.

Since Nash left Dirk has never had a great partner, unlike the guys I have listed. Nash has Amare yet no one talks about Nash choking in the playoffs. Now that the Celtics have Garnett and Allen, everyone now thinks Pierce is a great player, when before no one ever talked about him. Duncan and Manu also have Parker, so they should be win. Paul makes West better, which is easier, because Paul is a point guard and before Gasol everybody said Kobe is all about himself and that he can’t win a title on his own. Isn’t that true for all team sports? You need a partner by your side to win. Now that Gasols in L.A. everyone saying Kobe is MVP, which is long overdue, which does not make sense. If Kobe was the most valuable person to his team, he would have won a MVP already. How many of these guys have taken a team to the finals by himself? None, and Dirk has. Give Dirk, Redd or Vince Carter and he would be the one with 4 rings, not Duncan.

Brandon Webb, do I need to say more?

by srdmad on May 2, 2008 4:55 PM CDT 0 recs

IMHO

I think the year we went to the finals, JOSH+DEVIN= one sidekick. Devin came alive for us in SA series, and because Josh became a little more of an offensive threat, Bowen couldnt defend Dirk any more and had to focus on Howard. The way Devin and Josh played that playoff run is what made the difference from the last two years. Had they both stepped up their games 2 years ago vs GS, then while Dirk may have struggled, those guys SHOULD’VE picked it up and didnt.

At the beginning of the season, both Devin and Josh were well on their way of carrying this team more so than Dirk was… but it was not enough. We couldnt get all three of them playing good together again, we panicked at mid season and the rest is history. I think much to what Duncan has had over the past few years with Parker and Manu, could easily be compared to what Dirk had with Devin and Josh a few years ago in the playoffs… just for a longer period of time.

Just look at this last Suns-Spurs series. In each one of the Spurs wins, ONE of those three stepped up. IT wasnt always Duncan, nor Manu, nor Parker, but when the other two were average, the third one had a huge game. This is what I think we were hoping for with Devin, Josh and Dirk…

by Toddy on May 2, 2008 6:22 PM CDT up 0 recs

And it hasn't worked, which is why most of us want to trade for different players.

Brandon Webb, do I need to say more?

by srdmad on May 2, 2008 7:12 PM CDT 0 recs

I like Redd but damn, we already have an offensive threat if he’s given a chance. His name is Bass. If we were to trade Josh Howard and a few others that seem to have lost their shooting ability when it comes to the playoffs, trade them for a more proven defensive player with decent shooting skills, maybe someone who can drive the ball to the basket as well. Something that would have won them this series if they just attacked the basket.

http://mavsfanforlife.net

by rodeoclown on May 3, 2008 8:44 AM CDT 0 recs

Cuban wanted Bass to play more and Avery didn't do that until the last game of the season(35 min).

I don’t know why Avery didn’t play him very much and neither does Cuban, which I think is another reason why Cuban got rid of him. And I would like to have more defensive players on our team, but how many sg’s play good defense and score? Which is why I am so high on Josh Smith, because he is a great shot blocker and has a very smooth shooting form, but I don’t know if he can play the perimeter and guard guys like Kobe, which would be assigned to Howard. I would like Howard on the team with Smith(Howard at sg), but Howard would still be one of the top three scorers, and I would want him as the 4th option, so we don’t have to count on him to step up if the guys in front of him are off. With Kidd as the point guard and Dampier as the center, Howard automatically becomes at least the third option. If we had a better offensive center, like Darko Milicic, the offense could go through if Dirk and whoever have off nights. If we had a better defensive center, like Marcus Camby, we could rely on defense to us games.

Brandon Webb, do I need to say more?

by srdmad on May 3, 2008 12:01 PM CDT 0 recs

Josh Smith

did he qualify for his next year or is he a FA? I am sure though a lot of other teams (including atl now that they have taken the C’s to 7) will want to go after him and will be able to make a better run at him than we will.

But if cubes can make it happen, at 23-24 years old with a lot of upside, would be a great pick-up. But I remember the same wishful thinking last off-season about G. Wallace also.

by Toddy on May 3, 2008 4:13 PM CDT up 0 recs