Jermaine O'Neal Possibilities

by Jakedfw on May 11, 2008 1:38 PM CDT in Trades

With Rick Carlisle in the building, Bill Ingram over at Hoopsworld floated the possibility of a Mavs trade for Jermaine O'Neal of the Pacers during the summer. The centerpiece of his article was that the Mavs would trade uneven Josh Howard for oft-injured O'neal. Ingram doesn't go into details on how such a trade could work in terms of parts, but the guys over at Indy Cornrows took a whack at the possibility (with a hat tip to Caught in the Web) and found it unlikely for a few reasons.

First of all there is the salary issue of a $10 million difference in salaries. That's a large amount to fill in. Another player or players would have to be included to make it work.

Next up, and perhaps more importantly from Indy's standpoint, there is Howard's comments about smoking marijuana:

Josh Howard is a great player and no doubt a good guy, but the Pacers can't take a risk of having another player suspended for drug use and Howard would definitely constitute a risk.

These are compelling points. However, the article makes one key point that I think makes this trade distinctly possible:

...combined with Dampier, it might be as good a deal as the Pacers could find for J.O.

And that deal--Dampier and Josh for O'Neal--is a compelling one for the Mavs. It's a risk, of course. The Mavs are trading two starters for one, but there is a significant upside in that the Mavs would have an extremely strong two-way center to pair with Nowitzki and Kidd. With Kidd on the court the Mavs could certainly use Terry as a small 2 guard sniper. The real problem would be the hole that Howard leaves at small forward. Could Bass fill that position? These are the kind of intriguing questions and risks that make this deal interesting.

But there is an evern more compelling reason to make this deal: O'Neal's contract. Howard and Dampier have three more years on their deals than O'Neal, who would come off the books--guess when? Yes, the exact same year that Kidd comes off the books. That puts the Mavericks in a spectacular salary cap position, while still having a Dirk on the roster.

So Jermaine O'Neal for Erick Dampier and Josh Howard is similar to the Jason Kidd deal in that it is a "win now" risk with fantastic long-term prospects for the team to build on if it doesn't work out (and even if it does work out!).

Note what the Indy Cornrows guys said, as well: "...it might be as good a deal as the Pacers could find for J.O."

The real wild card here is the relationship between new Mavs coach Rick Carlisle and Jermaine O'Neal. O'Neal doesn't have a problem with Carlisle, but he is far from a fan. When Jim O'Brien replaced Carlisle at Indiana, O'Neal was very public how he liked O'Brien's offense more than Carlisle's (even though his production went down). O'Neal also found Carlisle aloof, a common criticism of Carlisle. All told, Carlisle here isn't going to make O'Neal enthusiastic about joining the team, although it isn't a deal breaker either. The interesting thing is that the opposite doesn't seem to be the case: Carlisle use O'Neal very effectively in Indiana, and it is quite possible that Carlisle would be enthusiastic about such a trade.

In the end, this is one of the real intriguing possibilities for the summer and one that makes a lot of sense for both teams.

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Wow...

If O’Neal stayed healthy — and that’s a BIG if — I would love this. I don’t want to give up on Josh, because I think he’ll bounce back strong next season, but if we could dump Damp’s salary, and get back a much-needed post defender and scoring threat, it’s a deal you have to seriously consider.

The Carlisle/O’Neal thing doesn’t really bother me much… Maybe Carlisle wouldn’t make O’Neal “enthusiastic” about being here, but he would have plenty of reason to be enthusiastic about playing with Dirk and Kidd instead of in Indiana. If going from Indiana -> Dallas doesn’t excite you as a player, you’re in the wrong business.

by MeanMr.Mustard on May 11, 2008 2:58 PM CDT 0 recs

Work in Marquis Daniels and we got a deal.

I thought O’Neal played PF, so I never thought of this kind of deal.

Brandon Webb, do I need to say more?

by srdmad on May 11, 2008 3:00 PM CDT 0 recs

I forgot about Marquis

He technically does play PF (or at least did at one point), but in a league devoid of dominant centers, he can hold his own at the 5, especially with a 7-footer next to him. Center vs. PF is becoming a non-issue in the league it seems.

by MeanMr.Mustard on May 11, 2008 3:02 PM CDT up 0 recs

Combined salary for Kidd and O'Neal, over 42 million.

Combined salary for AK-47, Joe Johnson, and Michael Redd, less than 42 million.

Brandon Webb, do I need to say more?

by srdmad on May 11, 2008 6:05 PM CDT up 0 recs

That to me puts this possibility into a reality.

Brandon Webb, do I need to say more?

by srdmad on May 11, 2008 6:06 PM CDT up 0 recs

And from Indiana's point of view...

Josh Howard and Damp pretty much puts them in the playoffs, in my opinion. They might prefer the free agent flexibility with O’Neal’s expiring contract, but this deal clearly makes them better.

by MeanMr.Mustard on May 11, 2008 3:00 PM CDT 0 recs

Jermaine's Contract doesn't expire for 2 more years...

by N41D on May 11, 2008 6:59 PM CDT up 0 recs

Oops

Misunderstood something Jake said in the article.

by MeanMr.Mustard on May 11, 2008 7:46 PM CDT up 0 recs

Here's proof.

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/indiana.htm

Brandon Webb, do I need to say more?

by srdmad on May 11, 2008 9:23 PM CDT up 0 recs

Curious

I easily could have misunderstood it, but I took a a look at Patricia’s player salary site. Here are the details:

Damp and Josh are free agents in ‘2011. Kidd is a free agent in ‘08 but has a player option he will obviously take, which makes him a free agent on ‘09.

O’Neal is a free agent in ‘08 but also has a player option he will take, which makes him a free agent in ‘09.

Now I just checked the Hoopshype page and it shows O’Neal as in ‘10. This complicates matters a lot, if true. The Mavs then have a hard decision to make in ‘09. They won’t have a ton of cap room like there would be in the scenario of O’Neal comes off the books then. They then have to make a tough decision: Aim for a lousy year with no big signings and have a massive amount of cap room for Dirk’s final contract year (and possibly multiple big signings) or aim for incremental improvement in ‘09 and then use O’Neal’s contract to go after one of the guys coming off the books in ‘10.

The number of players hitting free agency in ‘09 and ‘10 is very strong (and as Cuban noted, there will be CBA bargaining going on). So even the Hoops Hype scenario makes this deal lucrative for the Mavs.

by Jakedfw on May 11, 2008 9:51 PM CDT up 0 recs

In all reality

I think that as long as we have a ton of leverage to use in the ‘10 season to use on Josh’s draft class (which includes LBJ, Melo, Bosh, and the homo in Miami) we are fine, cuz MOST of them will most likely go after more money I image. I am not so worried about the year when Kidd comes off, but the year after that, if we have a TON of cap room to throw at one of these guys… it would be VERY enticing…

by Toddy on May 11, 2008 11:58 PM CDT up 0 recs

I like the

proposal the guys did over there at Indycornrows of Terry and Damp better than Damp and Josh. I am still on board with giving Josh another chance still, and it seems as though Indy (fans at least) prefer Terry/damp over josh/damp anyway. I think all of us would welcome a starting line up of…

Kidd
Stack/Josh
Josh/Bass?
Dirk
O’Neal

Then if we could use the MLE to resign wright and diop, and then SOMEHOW maybe pull a brent barry/should’ve been stackhouse ordeal with someone (stack maybe?) to bring back Marquis Daniels in the O’Neal trade, and have him play some point for us to back up kidd, you would have to like our team.

That would be one of the best starting 5 in the league, and the combo of Dirk/josh/kidd/O’neal would all be potential All-star candidates who could in reality all take over a game at any given time. It would also be a GREAT 9 man rotation IMO, maybe even better than the ‘05 squad?... the of course we would be picking up some scraps and old vets to more than likely fill in the rest of the holes.

Wishful thinking, but who knows…

by Toddy on May 11, 2008 6:23 PM CDT 0 recs

Yeah...

I asked my friend who’s a Pacer fan about the trade, and he said that have a logjam of sorts at SF, so maybe Josh wouldn’t be the best fit. I’ve had a love-hate relationship with Terry over the years, but when it really comes down to it I’d hate to see him go. Terry + Damp for Jermaine-O might be too good to pass up, though.

by MeanMr.Mustard on May 11, 2008 7:49 PM CDT up 0 recs

I guess

I guess this is technically true, maybe. But really they seem to have a lot of guards, because almost all their forwards play guard too. Here’s everyone on their list that CAN and DO play guard for them:

Marquis Daniels
Jaamal Tinsley
Travis Deiner
Mike Dunleavy
Danny Granger
Kareem Rush
Stephen Graham
Andre Owens

Not many of these guys can play SF that well, but a number of them play a SG very well, it seems to me. I don’t know much about the team, so I could be wrong about that.

by ary201 on May 12, 2008 8:25 AM CDT up 0 recs

I think he was thinking of SF

From a swingman perspective, so a 2 or a 3. You’re right though, most of those guys make better SGs than SFs. He said the teams biggest needs are at the 1 and 5, which makes sense given the list you just posted. Tinsley isn’t good enough or healthy enough to be a reliable point guard.

by MeanMr.Mustard on May 12, 2008 4:53 PM CDT up 0 recs

Agreed

I agree that Indy would kill to do this deal for Terry and Damp, but I would much rather give up Josh than Terry. Dead eye shooters like Terry just don’t grow on trees. On the other hand, Terry makes even more financial sense for the Mavs than Josh does (he has a longer contract), so maybe it’s the move we make.

I agree, though:

Kidd
???
Josh
Dirk
O’Neal

is strong defensively and a very tough cover on offense.

by Jakedfw on May 11, 2008 9:54 PM CDT up 0 recs

If you can do Terry/Damp for JO, you HAVE to...

Then bring back Antoine Wright and Devean George, bring Reyshawn Terry back from overseas, buy a late 1st round and take a defensive-minded guy like Mario Chalmers or Brandon Rush…

Then depending on cost, take the MLE and go get DeSagana Diop and Chris Duhon/Mikael Pietrus depending on what you can get through the draft? Don’t know what those three would demand in terms of cash… If you could split the MLE between two of them, that’d be GREAT.

Kidd (Chalmers/Duhon?)
Wright/Terry (Rush/Pietrus?)
Howard/Stackhouse/George
Nowitzki/Bass
O’Neal (Diop?)

Then take second rounders and fill in with another athletic big up front… Someone like Leon Powe or Carl Landry.

You’ve still got the flexibility of Kidd’s expiring contract if something comes along as the deadline nears, and you’re not picking up any additional long-term deals…

This team’s biggest issue is getting more athletic. They need to concentrate on that with the MLE and through the draft… With that type of lineup, assuming O’Neal were healthy, you’d have to think we’d be back near the top of the West. Howard back as the third scoring option, even more pressure off Kidd/Dirk. More freedom in the offense, finally having a post scoring threat… JO is tough as nails on the court, and that lineup is NICE defensively.

by N41D on May 12, 2008 11:01 AM CDT up 0 recs

Would be great for Dirk

It’s amazing how good Dirk was in the playoffs with no other consistent scoring threat. If our 5 spot could score, even just 14ppg, then there would be less pressure on DIrk. We need someone to score down low.

by Dirkanoid on May 11, 2008 10:54 PM CDT 0 recs

The Pacers

seemed to be better without O’Neal than with him this season. That’s good, in that they’ll wan to ship him out. But what if he sucks again?...

by jonthefon on May 12, 2008 1:11 AM CDT 0 recs

injuries

Is Injuries a non-issue? He hasn’t exactly played strong minutes the last couple years. He’s average under 48 games a season since 03-04.

by ary201 on May 12, 2008 8:27 AM CDT up 0 recs

+1

His injury history is definitely a red flag for me. I’d only do it if the Mavs doctors swore up and down he was a low risk moving forward.

by MeanMr.Mustard on May 12, 2008 4:56 PM CDT up 0 recs

I am salivating.

This MUST happen.

Terry / Damp … Josh / Damp … whatever. PLEASE make this happen!!

"I hope it's a special dumb person hell so that I don’t have to meet up with you after I die."

- The D-tron

by Chase Irwin on May 12, 2008 11:19 AM CDT 0 recs

Our 2/3 spot would be covered if we got Daniels in this trade.

If we traded Terry and Damp for O’Neal and Daniels, then traded Howard and Stack for Redd, our lineup would be this.
Kidd
Redd
Daniels
Dirk
O’Neal
Our bench would have no one, but we can always find guys to fill that up. Don’t forget that Daniels is a year younger and an inch taller than Howard, plus Daniels outside game is not as good as Howard’s, therefore, Daniels is forced to slash and score that way, which is what we need.

Brandon Webb, do I need to say more?

by srdmad on May 12, 2008 5:16 PM CDT 0 recs

Terry, Dampier, Jones for O'Neal and Daniels.

http://www.realgm.com/src_tradechecker/4/

Brandon Webb, do I need to say more?

by srdmad on May 12, 2008 5:49 PM CDT 0 recs

I think Eddie has a player option next year

I’m sure he wouldn’t want to play for Indiana, but maybe we could Keith Van Horn him into some free money. Or I guess we could pull an under-the-table Brent Barry resign after he gets cut, but we might not even want him back.

by MeanMr.Mustard on May 12, 2008 9:11 PM CDT up 0 recs