Jason Kidd: Open Thread
First off, congratulations to Kidd and Team USA for pulling out a close win against Spain early Sunday morning.
Not sure how many of you followed Kidd and Dirk in the Olympics these past few weeks, but I thought since there isnt much basketball til October, that we start of this week talking about what you think about Kidd now after seeing him in this summer in a more of an open-court offense. I didnt see all the games, but I would say I saw the majority of them. So I will briefly kick things off on what I took away from his short bursts of play, and what it means for the Mavs.
Offensively, Kidd is VERY limited in the half court. In the open court though, the sky is still the limit with this guy. It was almost embarrassing at times to see him wander around the perimeter in the half court, with no one paying attention to him defensively at all.
This may come to you as a surprise, but the Mavs MUST run next year, if Kidd is going to be effective. The supporting cast must be able to finish and knock down open shots as well. Kidd hit a few key shots when most least expected it, but thats because his defender usually was playing about 10 ft from him. Still though, even with him hitting an occasional jumper, having Kidd and Diop or Damp in the lineup together could mean we see a lot of 3 on 5 basketball offensively this year.
Kidd averaged about 11, 7.5 and 10 last year, this year I predict him finishing at 12, 6, and 11. The reason I have him slightly better is because I think Avery held his game back too much for much of last year, and he will also be playing for a new contract for the following year.
Defensively, I thought the 9-time All Defensive selection Kidd, still held his own pretty well. He definitely has lost a step, but only to the point where I see a handful of guards abusing him this year. He is not quick and crafty like Harris is, but he is not afraid to get physical by any means. I also think that having the defensive presence of both Damp and Diop now will help cover up some of his flaws that we will undoubtably see from Parker, CP3, Harris, etc. this year. But against the likes of some of the bigger, not lighting-quick guards, like say Davis, Billups, etc, I see Kidd being able to at least compete defensively against those guys physically. Also because of his size, if he and Terry are playing together on the floor, he will more than likely defend the other two guard, leaving the slightly quicker Terry to defend the likes of the opposing quicker guard. This helps cover up some of the biggest weaknesses for both Terry AND Kidd on the defensive end.
I think if we go into the year with the current roster, it might be fair to say that our defense will again be anchored at the center position. Teams scoring heavily in the paint has never really been THAT big of an issue for the Mavs with Diop and Damp. Shaq wasnt the Mavs worst nightmare in the Finals, and surely neither was Biedrins from GS. Its been the perimeter defense that has been shady, at best, and I dont see how we have really addressed this issue... AGAIN. We will live and die defensively again this year based upon how well Josh, JET, George, Stack, etc. all defend the perimeter.
Anyways though, thats a what I took away from what I saw from Kidd. A few strengths, and a few weaknesses. I think its fair to say we cant expect a HUGE improvement numbers wise from him from last year. I do expect however, a huge improvement on how effective he should be at getting not only his numbers, but helping others get theirs as well.
Should be interesting to see all this come together this year... share your thoughts below.
[Note by Toddy, 08/25/08 12:21 PM MDT ] An interesting quote from LBJ on Kidd yesterday :
"I'm undefeated," Kidd, 35, said. "I told them I can retire now from international ball, but LeBron [James] threw out something I didn't like. He said he won't play in 2012 unless I'm there."
During the team news conference after the United States' 118-107 victory over Spain on Sunday, James suggested a slightly different scenario: "J-Kidd is going to become a player-coach now," he announced.
And what about his shooting? He was 6-7 in Olympic play, but says to expect more of that when he puts back on the number 2 jersey again:
"Now I'll become selfish and shoot all of those shots that I didn't shoot here," he said. "Carlisle and I talked about it before I left. I've been working on shooting a lot of shots. We'll see what happens."
Not sure how I feel about him taking a lot of shots though. Ideally, if he can penetrate and finish shots around the rim or be able to pass it out, thats all I would ask for. The occasional jumper is always handy, especially if defenders play him much like they did in the Olympics, but at this point in his career, he will never punish a team with his jumpshot. It seems as though he missed so many easy layups last year, I would like him to be a threat down there in the same way Nash and CP3 do when they drive.
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I hope Kidd plays well
against the lakrs. Mainly becouse of what koby said to a reporter about him during someone elses interview. When the reporter asked why kidd wasn’t getting big minutes, koby pops off with his two cents, “cause he’s old, thats why”. A couple of really good games from him would make me smile.
I’m an outsider, so I just assumed that losing harris was a huge mistake, and couldn’t see any real benifit to having Kidd. Glad I read your perspective, good insight. I wonder though, are mav fans just looking for any bright side they can find in this, or is there a majority backing the trade? Do people really think Kidd is a better fit on this team?
Have you guys got your coaching situation figured out yet?
"Next up, an event we will be following this through Celtic training camp: the Trail Blazers’ fan base competes in sychronized sweating."
--- LaoTzu on Aug 22, 2008 11:51 AM PDT
by ptwnblzr on Aug 25, 2008 7:18 AM CDT 0 recs
On Kobes comments
in following everything with this USA team, and how Kidd fits in, those comments from Kobe kinda fall in line with an ongoing joke that everyone on the team has been giving him. They call him old and such, and then Kidd plays off of it by making Williams or Paul carry his bags, get him stuff, etc. all because he’s an “old man”. I dont think Kobe intended it to be, nor did Kidd take that as something other than those guys just having a good time.
In fact it was Kobe remember, and LBJ as well, who came out last year after playing with Kidd last summer, and wanted their respected teams to make a run at Kidd.
As far as finding a bright side to this Kidd deal, most of us are still up in the air about it. I think up til this point, especially in Avery’s system, we could report the Kidd trade as a failure. But bringing in a new coach, with an open offense, could swing this thing back around. Its hard to say though what it will take to determine for me at least, if this trade was smart or not. A championship definitely solidifies that move, but what about anything less? I guess it depends on how we go out.
Again on Kidd being a good fit on this team, we just dont know yet. I dont know if we even have the right guys around Kidd to make him effective, because we hardly ran anything offensively last year that resembled what Kidd had done in NJ, Phx, and Dallas prior in his career. Sure we had some moments, but we never saw any consistency.
by Toddy on
Aug 25, 2008 11:13 AM CDT
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I disagree with you about koby
I would bet he ment it in a decisive tone. he is unmatched with concern to skill with the ball, but sooo lacking in any tact or people skill, or leadership, or anything that might have anything to do with leadership.
as long as he has been in the league, it shouldnt be to long into the season befor you know what youve got. he shouldnt need a lot of time to do well if hes gonna. good luck, especally against the lakrs.
"Next up, an event we will be following this through Celtic training camp: the Trail Blazers’ fan base competes in sychronized sweating."
--- LaoTzu on Aug 22, 2008 11:51 AM PDT
by ptwnblzr on
Aug 25, 2008 7:19 PM CDT
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Leadership
just curious as to how you define a leader on a basketball team.
I am sorry to hear that you disagree me about the context in which Kobe made those comments. Unfortunately neither you nor I can know for sure. I do know however that on both the NBATV special I saw on Kidd during their time in Vegas, and ESPN’s special on the Redeem Team before the Olympics started, they had several players referring to Kidd as an “old man” with a humorous tone, and with Kidd seemingly taking it with laughter and with pokes at them in return. And these were made to Kidd, right to his face and right in front of the cameras.
Now the specific players that I remember messing around with him off the top of my head are Williams, Paul, and LBJ. From what I could tell from all those instances, they were all just having fun with it. Now I remember Kobe saying this, but I cant remember exactly the context in which he said it. I’m just going purely based off of what I saw from the other guys, and assume he meant it in the same fashion as them. Just because one may not like him (which its VERY obvious that you do), one cant always assume the worst possible scenario with everything.
Plus I think that had it been a direct swipe at Kidd, the media would have been all over it more so than they did.
by Toddy on
Aug 25, 2008 9:09 PM CDT
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No, I can ALWAYS assume the worst possible scenario for koby.
I just have to accept the fact I can also be wrong a lot.
I vaguley racall some effort to have kidd as a teamate by a couple of superstars, (I dont know why I kant stop thing kg was in that mix too) but I didn’t follow the redeem team as closly as I did the international compition, and wasn,t exposed to that perspective. I did however read more then a few write up questioning kobys attitude, motivations, 3 point shot, ect. Admittedly, I might be (subcontiously) be looking for news that validates my distaste for what I percieve to be his brand of basketball, so I do make a concerted effort to look for articles that are showing him in a good light. I somehow missed all of those.
The article I was refering to, I found though basketbawful or true hoop(since I read those the most), and linked to the original story from there. So that was two discolered authers, one on a national leval, that also missed all the “fun-times old-man” love the players were throwing his way. Hmmm, OTOH, how hard could it be to find 2 authers in a row that don’t love koby? I’d guess its pretty easy.
so far as leadership? i guess the ability to not have your coach selling books about your lack of charictor would be a good start, not having exteamates writing krappy raps about you couldn’t hurt either. these things happened off the court becouse of what he does on the court. He is inarguably the highest skilled player in the game, but his knowledge of that is detramental to the team.
I used to work in an industry were my skill set went unrivaled. I produced the highest numbers that place had ever seen. Every one of the 100 other people knew. I made sure of it. People hated being around me. Just before I was reliesed, I made people move locations, cry, and quit. I was the best indevidual, but people would crumble around me, and preform below their leval. My strongest rival wasted away and left, cause he couldn’t stand being arround me. I was great like koby, but like koby, i was unable to effectivly lead, while my numbers will stand indisputably, I was never able to inpire or elicit the best from my team. Only when I wasnt around would they do well.
"Next up, an event we will be following this through Celtic training camp: the Trail Blazers’ fan base competes in sychronized sweating."
--- LaoTzu on Aug 22, 2008 11:51 AM PDT
by ptwnblzr on
Aug 26, 2008 12:19 AM CDT
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how can you say you don't know if we have the right guys around him?
Kidd needs three things: shooters, athletes and free reign. He’s got shooters in Dirk, Jet, Josh, Stack, and to some extent Green, R. Terry, George and Bass; he’s got athletes in Green, R. Terry, Jet, Josh, Bass and occasionally Stack and Diop; and hopefully, he’s got the free reign and green light from Carlisle.
"So you have no frame of reference here, Donny. You're like a child who wanders into the middle of a movie and wants to know... "
by Walter Sobchak on
Aug 27, 2008 1:05 PM CDT
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I dont know
because we are returning with almost the exact same team that we had last year. I agree on your three things that Kidd needs in order to be effective 110%. But do the Mavs really have those things? Lets look:
Shooters. Guess who the Mavs top 3pt shooter was last year without looking at the stats. A casual observer would most likely assume either Dirk or Jet. Fact is, both those guys shot under 40. In fact of those who played significant roles last year, Kidd of all our guys was the best at 46. Dirk was 36, JET was 37, Stack was 33, and Josh was 32. Those numbers arent horrific by any means, but they are hardly the type of 3pt shooting need in order for Kidd to be effective. Dallas was in the bottom half of the league in this category, and was in about the middle for overall fg%. Inside the arc gets slightly better, with Dirk and Jet probably being our best mid range shooters. This part of Josh’s game really needs to be improved in order for Kidd to be effective. All in all, in theory the potential is there for there to be shooters, but based upon what we saw from last year, those guys werent exactly putting up the type of shooting numbers that would make a guy like Kidd, Nash, etc be effective.
Athletes: When Kidd was traded, most consisdered Josh to be the biggest benificiary of the Kidd trade. Turns out though, his game actually declined and for the most part, Dirks game improved (mostly because of sure will, not neccisarily because of Kidd) and Damps offensive numbers and touches increased significantly. Again, all those guys CAN be “athletic”, in the sense that we see a lot of “kidd to carter” or “Nash to Marion” type plays, but we didnt see a lot of it last year. Josh settled on his jumper, Stack was too slow or lazy, Terry ran with Kidd, but is significantly undersized, etc.
Free Reign: This is probably the most important of the three pieces. If Kidd is to be used effectively, and we need to bring out our “shooters” and “athletes” out of the current roster, then this is the thing we are all counting on. I honestly think Rick will give him that, and some. I actually see Kidd taking this team over from Dirk at some point in the season, and be the floor general we have heard he can be.
Our roster still has some “ifs” in my mind, only because we never really saw any of these things come together last year. So there is a big question mark still there for me. In theory though, and with some hopes and dreams that guys like Josh will turn it around, JET will find his 44% 3pt shooting he had 2 years ago, Dirk continues his MVP level of play, guys like green and Bass get significant PT and opportunity, then yeah, this is going to be the right roster for Kidd.
by Toddy on
Aug 27, 2008 3:51 PM CDT
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I'm still pissed about the trade
It doesn't matter if you win or lose, as long as you come in first.
by Super Saiyan Patrick on
Aug 25, 2008 3:31 PM CDT
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A little better...
Not a ton, though…
Still don’t see this team being built properly for a guy like Jason Kidd to really flourish… Especially at this age.
by N41D on Aug 25, 2008 12:42 PM CDT 0 recs
Congrats to Jason, but he was not the reason the US won gold
I saw all games of Dirk, and I think all but one of the US games. Dirk didn’t perform well and was just stoked to be there, but he got all kinds of double and triple-teams thrown at him because he was Germany’s only effective offensive player (Hamann the PG played ok, and Kaman played well on defense, but offensively was surprised by the physical international play). And due bad play in the third and horrible officiating in the game against China, he didn’t make the medal round, but probably would have lost in the quarterfinals with this squad anyway. He might not come out of the Olympics completely happy, but he has stated that he thoroughly enjoyed the whole experience and now will focus completely on winning a title with the Mavs in the next three years.
As for Kidd: There is no doubt that he was in the bottom tier of the US Team, and if he hadn’t started as an “elder statesman” to lead the team in the first few minutes would probably have seen as little playing time as Boozer and Redd. He was no scoring threat whatsoever and posted 13 points in the whole Olympics against guards from Angola, China,… He made all his field goals, one of his two three point attempts, and had no FT. But scoring clearly wasn’t his role on the team. What is more bothering, is that at 16 assists in the Olympics he had one less than Spain’s Rudy Fernandez who isn’t even a PG. Granted, he only played a little more than 100 minutes, but for a guy who has turned into a pass first, second and third guard that’s not a lot. His rebounding was solid, but not outstanding compared to the other PGs. Couple that with 12 turnovers, and my conclusion would be that he played between mediocre and pretty abysmal. Another comparison: Paul had 33 assists, 9 turnovers and 18 steals.
I also have one fear that might not be rational: It seems like he coached Chris Paul and Deron Williams a lot, talking to them about what he learned from the former greats (e.g. a Steve Nash, Payton, Stockton, …) and demonstrating them his stuff. Thus, he could have made guys that already have an edge on him even stronger instead of helping the Mavs.
If he ends his (NBA) career next season and goes to Europe or even worse plays for another club, we will have paid for a 15 months lease on Kidd by giving up a ten years younger Devin, two valuable first round draft picks and a bunch of other players (one of which we had to buy back for a lot). That would go down as one of the worst trades in the last ten years.
Odenied: Asked whether he noticed Oden favoring his right knee, Frye dismissed it entirely. "He favors dunking on your head, that's what he favors."
by Norsktroll on Aug 25, 2008 4:13 PM CDT 0 recs
One of the worst trades in the last ten years?
Yeah, that’s pretty much what we’re dealing with…
It doesn't matter if you win or lose, as long as you come in first.
by Super Saiyan Patrick on Aug 25, 2008 5:46 PM CDT 0 recs
Trade asset
As far as I know Kidd’s contract is expiring this year. So it still gives the Mavs a huge trade asset this year or a ton of cap flexibility in the off season. If the Mavs don’t win the title this year or make a good post-season run with Kidd, we should gauge the trade with what we have at the start of next season. If we are able to swing a blockbuster trade with Kidd or if we acquire a marquee free agent (not sure if there are any in 09) than this trade doesn’t look as bad as it may seem now.
I still think it’s not a bad deal. They tried the “win now” approach, but still have room to operate if it doesn’t work.
Of course assuming the contract is expiring this year and I didn’t forget any other obstacles. ;)
by coolste on Aug 26, 2008 4:37 AM CDT 0 recs
Forget cap space
The Mavs will be at $68 million next year, and that’s without re-signing Green, Bass, Singleton, or Kidd. No major free agents next season. And I doubt Kidd and his expiring contract is a “huge trade asset” to get a great player in return, even if the Mavs management was willing to deal him in February long before the playoffs which I doubt. This team has maneuvered itself into a corner, and it will be really hard to get out of there. The only thing we will have in 2009 again is our first round draft pick.
Odenied: Asked whether he noticed Oden favoring his right knee, Frye dismissed it entirely. "He favors dunking on your head, that's what he favors."
by Norsktroll on
Aug 26, 2008 7:04 AM CDT
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Buuuut...
we’ll probably trade that pick for some douche bag from Croatianakistan. Or trade his rights to Dominoes so Nelson and Cuban can get free pizza and wings before every game.
It doesn't matter if you win or lose, as long as you come in first.
by Super Saiyan Patrick on Aug 26, 2008 2:48 PM CDT 0 recs
Dude.
We get it. You don’t support the Kidd trade. Every comment you have made since creating your account here has been in one way or another about hating the trade.
by JayKim41 on
Aug 26, 2008 5:15 PM CDT
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That's how upset about it I am
I can be nice though too, when I want.
It doesn't matter if you win or lose, as long as you come in first.
by Super Saiyan Patrick on Aug 26, 2008 5:21 PM CDT 0 recs
It's times like these
when you wish that basketball free agency works like baseball and you get draft picks when your FAs leave.
I’m just going to see how the Mavs look before I abandon my remaining hope in this team.
by jonthefon on Aug 28, 2008 6:19 AM CDT 0 recs
If only Bass could play SF.
Kidd in a lineup with Dirk, Bass, Howard, and Dampier would be hard to stop, unless you got a really good defense(Spurs, Celtics).
The best rotation lies in the desert.
by srdmad on Aug 28, 2008 7:50 AM CDT 0 recs
I think he can
and he should at least get a shot at it. Offensively he needs his jumper to get just a little deeper… Defensively he will never be able to guard the likes of D-Chair, Kobe, Manu etc. His perimeter defense would be very suspect, unless he really worked on his foot work and speed this summer.
by Toddy on
Aug 29, 2008 1:50 PM CDT
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Wouldn't Howard be defending those guys?
And D-Chair? First time I have heard that.
The best rotation lies in the desert.
by srdmad on
Aug 29, 2008 9:52 PM CDT
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yeah mostly
he would, or kidd even. I think we could make it work defensively, but because we never saw a line up of kidd, josh, bass, dirk and damp, its hard to say exactly what the issue what the problem would be.
With the likes of SA, you could have bass on bowen and that not be an issue at all. Say though you get a team like phx though, with both hill and bell. Could bass stick with Hill? Would you put Dirk on hill and move bass to amare? It could work, it would be interesting to know why avery never even at least toyed with that idea of having bass at the sf.
And as far as D-chair goes… I know you know who I was referring too… but here is a reminder for those who dont…

by Toddy on
Aug 30, 2008 12:32 AM CDT
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If I had to guess I would have said D-Chair
is D-Wade. Bowen and Hill aren’t exactly offensive machines, so I think Bass could stick with them, simply because those guys won’t be taking many shots.
The best rotation lies in the desert.
by srdmad on
Aug 30, 2008 7:06 PM CDT
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Theory, News, Rumors and Hypothetical Trade Scenarios
Slacking off here on mavsmoneyball ??I need my mavs fix for the week end…..why didnt the Mavs try for Ricky DavisKnowbody likes the Idea of Mike Miller… Why not move Damp and his huge contract to Indiana…what could we get there that would fill needs here. Maybe some 3 team trades?? I can actually hear my self echo…hello hello hello
All warfare is based on deception.
by aaronp on Aug 29, 2008 6:46 PM CDT 0 recs
haha
if you have any good ideas, or topics you want to start up, feel free to open discussion in the fanposts. The big news this week really from the Mavs was that Kidd gave his medal to the wife of the owner of the wynn hotel (which I lost a ton of money at last time i was there) and he changed sneakers from nike to peak.
Im going to post some previews of the SW division up, with some updated power rankings from around the web tomorrow… but other than that there is not much going on Mavs wise til training camp starts, or the FO makes a trade.
by Toddy on
Aug 30, 2008 12:36 AM CDT
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