Howard/Quick 2 Guard Debate
by JukeboxJoe on Jul 23, 2009 6:05 PM CDT
13 comments
Take a look at the Western Conference two guards:
Utah - Brewer, Korver
SA - Mason, Ginobili, Hill
Sac- Kevin Martin
Por - Roy
PHX- J Rich
OKC - James Harden
NO - Mo Pete, Rasual Butler
Minny- Q Richardson, Corey Brewer
Mem - Mayo
LaL - Kobe
LaC- Eric Gordon
Hou - Tmac, Ariza
GS - SJack, Magette, Morrow
Den - JR Smith, Afflalo, Sonny Weems
Outside of Kobe, Roy, and a healthy Ginobili, who on that list is so bad ass that Josh Howard can't guard them? And we're asking Howard to guard them, not play Artest/Bowen level stoppage on them. With LA, having Marion and Ross on Kobe, I have no problem with Howard on Artest, you'd want Artest taking as much shots as he wants on that team anyway. With Portland, having Marion and Q guarding Roy, I have no problems with Fernandez and Outlaw trying to carry that team. With SA, Ginobili has been plagued by more injuries than Howard, don't assume that Howard can't recover and Ginobili who is older and whose injuries have been worse is going to be at 100%. And as far as Richard Jefferson is concerned, he'll have his big games but he's more of a shooter than slasher now and really hasn't been a huge threat since he was playing with Kidd. He's definitely going to enjoy those corner threes but if San Antonio is running their offense through him, I'd call that a plus for the defense.
Outside of those three, the guys who'll probably give him the most trouble are George Hill and OJ Mayo because of their quickness and point guard ability. However, Mayo plays on a crappy team and Hill looks good but who knows how much consistent playing time he's going to get on a nightly basis.
Somebody needs to put to bed this Howard, quick 2 guard debate. It's ridiculous. The elite players at the position aren't guardable no matter who is defending them. DWade, Kobe, every team has trouble stopping them. That's not solely a Howard or Dallas Maverick problem. And that's why we signed Quentin Ross and Marion, for the tougher matchups and still have Kidd/Terry for the quick smaller twos. Throughout the game Howard isn't going to be the only defender on these guys, the Mavs have a couple of guys they can throw at them. To me the Mavs problem has never been perimeter defending, it's having Dirk's soft tail on the inside. Teams who have played great consistent defense have always had two sturdy posts in the lane to step up on penetration. Guarding individual superstar talent is a team effort, one guy can' t guard them.
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Maybe Howard can't guard Kevin Martin or Mayo
but what’s the chance we face them in the playoffs?
War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.-1984 George Orwell.
by tomkanti on Jul 23, 2009 6:14 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Ehh..
Sorry for double post.. ok here let me say this..
Like you said,
Kobe-Can’t
Ginobili-He can slow him down
BRoy-Can’t
Gordon-Slow him down, maybe get 3-4 under his PPG
Tmac-Wont play. if he does, he has bad knees so i say JHo can hold him to season averages
J rich-A few above his PPG
Q Rich-He relies on a Jumpshot so J HO can hold him o a few under his PPG
JR Smith-WAY too fast. Hell get 6-7 over ppg on JHO
Martin-ehh hell have a good game but not butcher us. 6-7 above PPG
Brewer-Hold him to PPG
These are the best ones in my eyes. Against SF’s, Howard can prob hold all but 3-4 to their reg PPG, but SG’s.. i dont think so. But we arent in bad shape with marion to help, and ross who is an underrated defender off the be
~Karim "The Dream" Odeh
by KarimTheDream on Jul 23, 2009 6:20 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Jesus Fucking Christ.
Did you even read that article? With a lot of those matchups, you can interchange Marion/Howard on the SG and the SF, if you assume Marion is still a better defender that Josh (who’s decent when he doesn’t have ankle problems).
Kobe/Artest: you do what you can with Marion guarding Kobe and Josh guarding Artest (who’s possibly overrated as a top scorer)/Odom. Ginobili/Jefferson: I don’t know how Manu comes out of the block after injury, but if Josh can’t handle him, fine, switch him with Marion again: Jefferson these days doesn’t look like a real in-out efficient volume scorer and probably benefited a lot from Kidd. Roy/Fernandez+Outlaw: I’m really shitting my pants here, Marion on Roy and Josh should be fine against Rudy and Travis. Marion’s going to get the defensive assignment against Melo and Josh will play on JR Smith, who’s streaky as ass-shit.
The Hornets? Well, they only score through CP3 so move past them. Utah? Ronnie Brewer is a solid defensive-minded player and I’m a fan of CJ Miles, but tell me Josh and Marion can’t handle the two of them, or when AK and Korver come off the bench.
Those are the playoff teams you’re going to deal with. Now, I think we might have a problem across the board with the younger athletic teams (Memphis with Gay, OJ, Conley and OKC with Durant, Green, Harden, Westbrook) but for now, they’re probably not making the playoffs. Same with LAC and Sacramento, who have Kevin Martin and Eric Gordon: you put Marion on those guys and Josh can guard…Nocioni or Tyreke Evans if Kidd struggles, and Al Thornton. Houston can’t create anything on offense…T-Mac’s gonna come back with no knees, Ariza can’t create a shot to save his life. I’ll be an arrogant douche and pass over Golden State, since we’re probably outscoring them anyway. And Phoenix are a sleeper with Richardson and Earl Clark, but J-Rich is hardly the scorer he was previously and Clark is a rookie with a ridiculous skill-set.
I think you’re underrating Howard’s ability to guard the shittier half of those SG/SF types. Right now, I’m reasonably confident Marion will do okay against the good half.
Remember to retire Fin's number, Mark.
by jonthefon on Jul 23, 2009 6:36 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Woooowww...
Nice to see you live in a Cinderella world where all those teams BUT us are garbage..
Do you think those teams are good for no reason? Haha.. i mean on paper were ok. Were prob 6th or 7th in the NBA, id say 3rd in the west. maybe 4th depending on Howard and ginobili.
But do you think were in a dream world where
LA-Pau, fisher, Sasha(who is streaky but he can drop 15 on any given night with his SICK jumpshot), Bynum, those guys, wont do good?
SA-Parker? Timmy? no. not ringing a bell?? erm. bowens 3 pointer? Bonner who sucks but can hit a few 3’s? nope? oh ok in that case we should breeze past them (without ginobili we will breeze past them. But thats assuming well get our injury plagued howard back, but they wont get theirs back? with that luck we can pass them)
Denver-ohh.. ok so JR smith is streaky and melo will be shut down. WOW why couldnt i think of that? Great plan. Ok so Billups is a nobody. Melo will definitely not still get his 20-25 points, Kleiza(who were lucky did crap against us) wont hit his usual 3’s .. Martin will just punk out and choke. Birdman wont intimidate our offence, thats a thing of the past. And the Denver bench, who isnt too talented but is FAST will do nothing. They wont dress out. YESS past denver too! yay!
Hornets- Ok shut CP3 down. Nice plan. ok so theyre out. Forget anyone else on that roster, i mean were not asking much, all were asking is for David west, to not come back from injury(but howard does, funny how that works out) And for the rest of the team, like mo peterson? but whos that anyway? to NOT step up, becuase the playoffs are definitely NOT about stepping up. so Yay past NO!!! were in the finals!!
Ok so assuming just like Melo and/or Kobe, Marion can take out lebron. And obviously the rest of The cavs suck, or if we face miami, Howard will just choke… right? yeah were past them and boston. Man pshh marion can take out pierce. then allen is streaky right? no? Nahhhh hell have a bad year and garnett? well if hes all the offence we can take them. Ohh and the Celtics STACKED bench, thats NOT a factor.
so. pretty much, dallas is the 2009-2010 NBA champs? Lets start Printing hats and shirts!!!
I HATE being like this. but its just being truthful. Were not getting past the West conf finals without either a. a big man defender, or b. a good SG
But guys, Realize this. all sarcasm aside, we hav
~Karim "The Dream" Odeh
by KarimTheDream on Jul 23, 2009 6:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
whoops hit enter on accident
We have been a good center away from a ring for SO many years! all sarcasm aside, we can win it all with a center!!! Come on!!! just a center and were set!!! or any defending Big man. we dont need offence
JUST AN INTIMIDATING DEFENDER!!!!
~Karim "The Dream" Odeh
by KarimTheDream on Jul 23, 2009 6:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
At no point
in our post did he and I say that the Mavs would be champions. However, I do believe the Mavs are closer than you think. I don’t know who they might acquire but you don’t think adding a Tyson Chandler or Samuel Dalembert type will give us a better chance to beat the L.A.‘s and Denver’s of the world. I’d even take Lamar Odom and move Dirk to the five. Odom’s a good defender down low and you can count the number of centers out there who have a post game and require a double team. Dirk can be just as passable on defense playing the 5 as he is at the 4.
The Spurs don’t scare me at all, especially long term. Duncan is already in decline, Ginobili is there too, Bowen is gone. Their best players(Tony Parker and Hill) are at the point position. With Duncan being what he is now, their post game and defense is going to suffer as well. Blair is a nice addition, but he’ll be a Danny Fortson, Reggie Evans bruiser type. Not a Jason Maxiell occasional force.
Denver has made no moves this off season and has lost Dahntay Jones. Afflalo will probably be inserted in his place but that’s just for defensive purposes anyway. If they want success similar to last season it will hinge on consistent play from Nene and the maturity of J.R. Smith(not likely to happen).
Boston is older than us, Rasheed Wallace is pretty much Robert Horry at this point which is fine, but he’s definitely not who he was 2 or 3 years ago. Marquis Daniels, I’m not sure how his ball dominant game will transfer off their bench. Big Baby will be exposed once he gets out of Boston(stay if you want to be relevant Big Baby). Health is just as big an issue there like in San Antonio.
Orlando basically traded Turkoglu for Vince Carter, that’s a downgrade especially if they’re planning to play Lewis at 4, Carter at 3 and Pietrius/Barnes at 2. If they plan to play both Gortat and Howard at the same time, then yeah I’d call that an improvement especially defensively. Then you’d be asking VC to guard the best wing on the floor which is something you shouldn’t depend on happening for long stretches in a game. Not having insurance for Jameer Nelson hurts too.
Cleveland will be there as well. Shaq is going to be help a bit. But as long as Mo Williams is their second best player, there will be questions on how good they really are until they win it all.
As far as L.A. goes, Kobe may not show it yet but his decline is coming. The improvement of Bynum is crucial to them staying elite. Gasol is great and Artest will help on the defensive end. They’re going to be the best team in the league next year if Odom comes back. However, I wouldn’t assume they will be automatic champions next year either. There are to many variables between now and then that can change any team.
After the show I want Greg Oden to tuck us both in and tell us stories about the old days. - Will Ferrell
by JukeboxJoe on Jul 23, 2009 7:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
NO FUCKING SHIT
THAT THE MAVS AREN’T GOING TO BE FUCKING CHAMPIONS, YOU GIANT DUMBSHIT. Any realistic Mavs fan will realize this team just doesn’t have enough to be a legit hope of getting past the West.
All we were initially trying to debate is the feasibility of running Josh Howard out there in the 2 spot. We weren’t discussing the rest of the teams. Of course I’m aware that the Lakers are really, really good past the 2 and 3. Of course I’m aware there’s a sure-fire HOFer and an All-Star point guard in San Antonio. Of course I’m aware there’s a team brimming with offensive depth in Denver. Utah still has Carlos Boozer (although they could deal him). NO still has Chris Paul scoring 30+ on the Mavs every time and throwing lobs to Tyson Chandler and getting West cheap baskets.
You were bitching about one reason that we were fucked was because Howard was playing the 2 spot and that we were “over-optimistic” that he could play D there. Since when did anyone expect plus defence from him coming off ankle surgery (that’s over-optimism)? I said nothing about Marion shutting down Kobe. All I said was that the team could adjust, and manage. Maybe not effectively, but they weren’t going to receive an assraping just because, according to your opinion, “Josh Howard is not a good SG”. He may be better suited to playing the 3, but he’s not garbage and giving up “20 or 25” to scrubs. That’s being pessimistic, not realistic. Marion can handle the above-average SG or SF assignments and keep them to where they’re at. Hoping for more is too optimistic.
This team might not be a top contender in the West, but a number of your reasons for that just doesn’t square up. I’ll agree with you on the center issue, but everyone’s discussed that to death and there aren’t options in FA. All anyone can do is hope we make a deal or find a miracle on the scrapheap. Rasho, anyone?
Remember to retire Fin's number, Mark.
by jonthefon on Jul 23, 2009 7:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Once again..
I would like NOTHING more. not 1 thing as far as the NBA is concerned for Howard to play the 2 and succeed.
But you guys are getting over hyped about this. Its gonna happen for a few games. Superstars will score 40+. All stars will score 30+ and nobodies will put up 20 or 25 on him. Then hes off to the bench.
I would love J ho to come back and be fast enough to play 2. but man.. its tough with his ankles. He will be a GREAT sub. both him nd terry will get 14+ off the bench. hell the 2 might combine for nearly 30 ppgs off the bench. and on offence, hell do good at 2. But if you guys are expecting him to do good at the 2 on defence, get ready to be disapointed
~Karim "The Dream" Odeh
by KarimTheDream on Jul 23, 2009 6:37 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
The reason why
I’m pissed off is because you’re pointing out something moronically obvious (Mavs aren’t top contenders), and then suggesting that everyone else isn’t as smart as you by implying that everyone here seems to think that we are contenders. Then you follow it up with an incredibly shitty argument about Josh’s supposed ineptitude at SG.
Remember to retire Fin's number, Mark.
by jonthefon on Jul 23, 2009 7:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Guys, Guys, Guys!!!! (Like the mob dude on Dumb & Dumber)
The Mavs have made the playoffs every year for the past 9 years (2nd longest streak). They are a perennial top tier team. They have a former MVP & they made the finals in 2006. LA has made a Finals appearance in the last two years so it’s not inconceivable to say that they are probably a better team but how much better? Who knows? Plus, there have been several roster tweaks for a majority of the Finals contenders. I mean wouldn’t wish this upon anyone but all it could take is a torn ACL & hot streak from any top tier team to be right there. We don’t even know for sure how the acquisition of Marion or old Damp being in a contract year will affect the Mavs. Dallas could have taken a step forward or two steps back for all we know. There hasn’t been a minute of hoops played yet. That is why we are here speculating & raising questions like “Is Josh going be fine at the 2”. We just don’t know. To say definitively either way as to what the Mavs will do next year just seems kind of ridiculous to me at this point.
by newkidd07 on Jul 24, 2009 12:41 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
+1
"We play to win the game" - Herm Edwards
by nicholas.rodriguez on Jul 24, 2009 4:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wasn't Josh our best defender till Marion came..
what has changed.. yea his ankles…thats what surgery is for to clean them up. Remember when he was at about 80% last year and we got on a big roll and didn’t end till he got hurt again… Its cuz he has his mind right, and THIS YEAR it seems his mind has been right from the start. U can doubt and be pessimistic but w/ the improvements there is hope now. Yea right now…again on paper we are the 3rd best team in the West, but again… SA is real old… Denver, how long can Chauncey keep all those headcases under control… Against LA- Do we even know if Phil is coming back…. Can Artest resist the Lime-light of LA, how long till Ron and Kobe get in a fight… Is Odom even coming back. Portland – They still don’t seem like a legit threat just yet, they could prove me wrong cuz Roy is a good player but who else besides Aldrige gets you worried… Outlaw off the bench,maybe… And I’m not gonna act like no other team can make any moves cuz they can but we still have a few pieces that will let us upgrade.. before counting us out wait till preseason to do that
"We play to win the game" - Herm Edwards
by nicholas.rodriguez on Jul 24, 2009 4:41 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
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