Is Jason Kidd still an Elite Point Guard?
Ball Don't Lie is the NBA blog on Yahoo! Sports and it's been ranking the top players in the league at their respective positions. I was highly curious to see where Jason Kidd ranked. I've never seen it before but apparently, this is an annual event for them. They really don't give the standard for their ranking system, but hey...it's relatively quiet in the NBA now so rankings are fun discussion pieces. Let's take a look at where he ranked on the list and what is around him.
12. Jason Kidd, Dallas Mavericks (last year: 10th)
There's no doubting the idea that Jason Kidd basically gets things about basketball that we do not -- never so perfectly articulated in a random Washington setting as it was last season by Rob Mahoney -- but his defensive shortcomings (despite, Kidd's best efforts) push him down a notch. Still, the guy is shooting over 40 percent behind the arc, now. How nutty is that? How great is this Hall of Famer?
The Players ranked 13th to 17th were:
Stephen Curry, Andre Miller, Brandon Jennings, Darren Collison and John Wall
The players ranked 11th down to 7th were:
Jameer Nelson, Baron Davis, Tony Parker, Devin Harris and Russell Westbrook
I think people tend to overreact or underrate Jason Kidd because people tend to expect the Jason Kidd we remember in his peak-performing days. That definitely isn't the type of player Kidd is now, he's reinvented himself while still having the ball of tricks at his disposal.
The man has his faults and limitations, but they really don't outmatch the positives he brings to the table. You can say he's running on empty, some would say he's done and needs to get out of the league. The people that say that need to get their eyes checked. You can say Kidd isn't the elite defender that was he was in his day and he can't kept up with the quicker players in the league now. What is the dirty little secret? There are a LOT of players who can't keep up with the quickest players in the league, just because Kidd can't do it doesn't make him an automatic bum.
What people forget is that the players that are on the court are ultimately better with Kidd on the floor as opposed to another point guard on the floor. The leadership that Kidd brings on and off the court is immeasurable. If you want to look at it strictly for on the court value, imagine how Roddy Beaubois would perform without Jason Kidd guiding him.
Kidd continues to make passes that most point guards can't even imagine making, he still hovers around the nine assist/game mark, which is elite. His rebounding numbers (5.6 rebounds/game) were still the best out of any pure point guard last season. What am I missing that declassifies Jason Kidd as an elite point guard?
I will say the one part of his game that I wish would find it's way out of the attic is his post up game. It might be a philosophy issue, it could be a willingness to do so issue, but Kidd is still stronger than most point guards in this league and he could absolutely abuse them on the block.
As I mentioned earlier, he is reinvented himself to still be a valuable threat offensively. Before coming back for his second tour of duty in Dallas, Kidd only had one year in fifteen year career where he shot above 40% from behind the three point line. Now, Kidd has done that every season since he's come back to the team. He's not just taking an occassional three here and there over the course of the game, he averaged 5.2 attempts/game which had him ranked 5th in terms of attempts. His percentage last season (42.5%) ranked him Stephen Curry, Mo Williams and Steve Nash. Those numbers are incredible for a player who was never really known as a legitimate outside shooter.
The last thing people remember is the bottom falling out from Kidd in the playoffs against the Spurs. There is no doubt that he didn't perform up to par in that series. You can buy the reports of him being sick if you want to, some people don't want to. I will buy the fact that he was overused in the regular season. Kidd averaged 36 minutes/game during the regular season and he played in 80 games. Both of those numbers are ridiculously high for Kidd. He was burnt out by the time the playoffs rolled around and he didn't have anything left. The Mavericks will need to learn from that mistake and give him occasional games off and do whatever is necessary to reduce his minutes closer to 30-33 minutes/game.
I would easily move Kidd up to 7th or 8th best point guard in the league. The facThe people at Ball Don't Lie clearly don't see Jason Kidd as an elite point guard anymore, they are clearly mistaken.
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They’re clearly not being mistaken, even though Yahoo! sports is absolutely awful. You’re being a homer. I can see him being put ahead of Nelson, but other than that no. I rather have Tony Parker running the point than Jason Kidd at this point of their careers.
Define an elite point guard to me because skimming over what you reasoned, you seem not to know the definition.
I think Jason Kidd is a delicate case
when it comes to the Elite tag. Elite? No. I agree with you that Kidd may be a bit overrated, but I have to defend Bryan, because calling him a homer is a bit too far. Kidd is good, not great(anymore).
With Kidd, our semi-transition is one of the best in the league. Since its semi, it doesn’t require him to be a super fast player. He’s one of the top 2 or 3 in the league at both vision, intelligence, and passing skill, combine that with being awesome at the trailing 3 point shot and you have a fantastic point guard. running the full on transition, i have to say Kidd loses a step. Halfcourt offense we’re set with Kidd. Halfcourt D he’s a liability. Semi-transition Defense he can use his stripping and stealing ability, because the opponent isnt sprinting at Jason as full speed. He’s still a liability.
When it comes to halfcourt Defense, i love Dallas, and fear Lisa, too much to be honest about this. So I assume you guys know what i mean to say, so ill leave it unsaid.
~Karim!
by KarimTheDream on Aug 24, 2010 7:37 PM CDT up reply actions
I'd say 8
You can say 7-8 point guards are elite and then inside of that 3-5 are the cream of that crop.
For a point guard, they have to be able to run an offense and run it effectively. They basically have to be that quarterback on the floor. More often than not, the offense ran a lot more fluidly when Kidd had free reign versus looking over to Carlisle to run a set play. The PG needs to make players better, which he clearly does. He has to be a two-way threat, which Kidd is. It might not be as flashy or be the best there is on both sides of the floor, but he still can get the job done. I think a really good indicator to determine if your point guard is elite would be if there wasn’t a head coach, could your point guard carry the team? That encompasses a lot of skills you need in order to be elite.
You would rank Jason Kidd below Baron Davis? Davis is a guy who can’t be counted on to stay on the court or have a legitimate team-centered attitude. He’s wishy washy, to say the least. I really can’t put Devin Harris ahead of him. Sure, Harris is fast and can score but what exactly has Harris done with the Nets? Guys like Harris, Westbrook and MAYBE to an extent Derrick Rose are just guys banking on potential. They all have multiple holes in their game. Can those players easily move up and surpass Kidd, definitely…but they aren’t there yet. I would probably take Rose out of that equation because he’s actually LED a team to multiple playoff appearances.
I can easily flip flop between Parker and Kidd, I can see the argument for both players, Parker has done it on the biggest stage. I would definitely put Chauncey Billups ahead of both Kidd and Parker. I’m not saying Kidd is greater than CP3, Williams, Rondo and even Nash…but there are a lot of young players out there that have a lot more to prove over a longer period of time
by Bryan Gutierrez on Aug 24, 2010 9:04 PM CDT up reply actions
Your argument for Kidd being better than Harris is honestly Kidd having more success? So are you saying Kidd right now, can go on the Nets without Harris and make that rebuilding franchise a winning team? That’s the worst logic I’ve read in a while. I’ll accept Baron Davis being less than Kidd because of his attitude, but talent-wise, Davis has an edge, his vision isn’t as great though.
If you could have either Kidd or Rose for only this season, are you seriously telling me you’ll take Kidd? I’ll take Rose’s athlecism, driving ability, and that jump shot he’s developed. People overrate the whole experience thing Jason Kidd has, as if it makes him almost as good as when he was in his prime.
He’s not a legit two-way threat, teams have to actually defend your shot. For most of the season, teams took a chance with Kidd, they let him take shots and if he made them, oh well. I don’t consider that elite. Teams back off Rondo at the three point line, but they still make sure to contain him from driving in the lane, the case is not the same for Kidd.
Also, all those guys you mentioned are pretty decent defenders, with the exception being Nash. Yes, not being fast enough isn’t a killer, but pretty much all elite PGs can use their speed to attack the rim and finish, or penetrate and kick it out. Kidd not so much.
He’s a vet, a good one to have, but he’s nowhere close to elite. He’s lost the label around 4 or so seasons ago.
He could get more out of the Nets than what Harris did, I’m sure of that. Kidd makes players around him better, I can’t say that’s the same for Harris. Even with his time with the Mavericks with superior talent to what the Nets have now, he really didn’t make players around him better.
I stated in the article and I’m stating it again, I’m going off of what we see NOW in Kidd, not the Kidd of his prime.
It’s the opposing d’s problem if they leave him open. There’s valid reasons to do so when you’ve got guys like Dirk, Butler and even Beaubois on the floor. It’s up to Kidd to make them pay and the percentages show that he did over the course of the season.
I told you I’d take Rose out of the equation and rank him higher than Kidd, I’m not sure where that got lost.
I’d rank it:
Paul
Williams
Rondo
Nash
Billups
Rose
and then a toss up between Kidd and Parker.
by Bryan Gutierrez on Aug 24, 2010 10:21 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't even think
there is an argument for Davis, Harris, or Nelson being ranked a head of Kidd, I would be saying the same thing if Kidd was still in NJ
by blueballlefty on Aug 24, 2010 9:53 PM CDT up reply actions
steve nash is but
jason kidd would be a great point guard coming off the bench wit chamler….
mavs championship line up....
haywood chamler
dirk thomas
caron marion
roddy terry
dojo kidd
I don't see how he's not elite either...
IMO there’s only a handfull of better PGs in the league today: Derrick Rose, Deron Williams, Russell Westbrook, Rajon Rondo and Steve Nash. I feel like I’m forgetting one more, maybe it’ll come to me soon. But yeah, there’s a not that many that are better, he lands at an easy 7th if not maybe 6th in the NBA if you ask me.
P.S. I almost died laughing when I saw that the morons ranked Tony Parker above Jason! LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
by elbow greater than face on Aug 24, 2010 7:45 PM CDT reply actions
Why do we insult people who aren’t biased towards the Mavericks?
We’re not judging off careers, people seem not to understand that when they talk about Jason Kidd. He’s a hall of famer, first ballot, but he’s not that guy anymore. He’s found a way to still be productive, but not an elite PG. Tony Parker’s one of the most underrated players in the league for a while now, he’s an all-star elite PG. He’s obviously at the end of the elite PGs, but he’s up there.
You forgot Chris Paul, Devin Harris, Tony Parker, and Billups. I think Baron Davis will have much better stats than Kidd, but that’s on a losing team.
You're partly right
I did forget Chris Paul (although I still don’t consider him as good as the media would tell you he is) Chauncey is good but he’s getting a lil too old as well. I’ll believe Harris is the real deal when I see him with a team that’s actually good enough to let him shine, so far he hasn’t had enough of a chance IMO.
As for the Tony Parker bit, sorry bro but it’s gonna take a lot to sell me on that, I’ll give him 8th or 9th spot but better than Kidd he aint.
by elbow greater than face on Aug 25, 2010 8:30 AM CDT up reply actions
How? Without him, San Antonio’s struggling to get a playoff spot. He’s a great scorer and he distributes the ball well. Kidd’s only a good distributor, a liability defensively, and has an OK 3 point shot that’s not too intimidating.
Do you think teams fear guarding Tony Parker more or Jason Kidd this coming season? I don’t even think it’s debatable.
the term "fear" is unbelievably subjective
and an annoying way argue your case. “fear” suggests that the guy could slash at the basket at will and take over a game with scoring, but who’s to say that an equal “fear” isn’t instilled with jason kidd’s all-around game? he makes great passes, he runs an offense exceptionally with the occasional outside shot.
how is that not equally threatening?
so...
we aren’t judging careers, but we’re judging recent performance? here are some facts:
jason kidd has played in all but three games the past two years.
tony parker has played in all but 32 in the same time period.
jason kidd’s per was 20 last season, parker’s was 18.4.
kidd’s efg was 56.6%, while parker’s was 49.4%
the point differential with kidd on/off the court was almost 7 points. with parker, it was 2.
kidd’s a/t ratio, rebounds, and steals, respectively, were better than parker’s.
/factual information
Why do we insult people who aren’t biased towards the Mavericks?
look where you’re posting. we’re going to wear mavs-colored glasses when we read something that includes analysis on one of our players.
We’re not judging off careers, people seem not to understand that when they talk about Jason Kidd.
you’re right. if we were judging off careers, tony parker would look unbelievably
overrated.
He’s obviously at the end of the elite PGs, but he’s up there.
and if he is, then he’s one rung lower than kidd, lookin up at shriveled ass.
by buckets on Aug 25, 2010 11:30 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Thyank you buckets!!!
You’re a godsend, finding all the stats that I lack the motivation to dig up =)
In conclusion Jason Kidd > Tony Parker.
Shriveled ass, just lol.
by elbow greater than face on Aug 25, 2010 3:21 PM CDT up reply actions
Buckets. That picture
Is my twitter picture.
Love family guy, hate John mayer. he should die.
Check out Twitter profile Karim_odeh
~Karim!
by KarimTheDream on Aug 25, 2010 9:48 PM CDT up reply actions
You put Tony Parker on ANY other team
and see what he would look like. Agreed, Buckets.
Mavs MoneyBall!!
Dallas Stars Examiner!!
poster formerly known as hinduplaya
by mayur.patel on Aug 26, 2010 12:04 AM CDT up reply actions
Pretty good on any playoff team. So you’re calling the Mavericks bad and Jason Kidd is the reason we’re good? Don’t contradict yourself, there!
Where did you get contradiction from?
Perhaps I wasn’t clear in what I was saying, but put Parker on a team like Detroit and what would happen? The guy’s got talent, don’t get me wrong, but his success has a solid amount to do with being on the Spurs and surrounded by so much talent year in and year out.
Mavs MoneyBall!!
Dallas Stars Examiner!!
poster formerly known as hinduplaya
Put Parker on Detroit and they’re freaking good, you must not have much knowledge of the game.
Villanueva, Gordon, Hamilton, Prince, McGrady, Wallace, Stuckey… with Parker at point? That’s a top 5 eastern team right there once Gordon and Villa wake up.
Put Kidd on any other team right now, and see what he would look like. Just an old man passing the ball and making an occasional three. Kidd has the same talent in Dallas, that Parker has in San Antonio, so your argument is honestly horrible. Parker even managed to get some rings and get a hotter wife.
First off
Learn how to read. In no part of either of my comments did I state anything about Jason Kidd. I NEVER said Kidd was an elite PG. If you actually go back and read my argument, I was saying that Parker is an overrated and not elite point guard, either.
And Detroit, a top 5 team with Parker. Wow, that’s an absolutely brilliant argument. You combine aging players in Wallace, Hamilton, and Prince with a guy who’s going to miss a ton of games in McGrady and 2 overpaid, one dimensional players in Gordon and Villanueva and you have a top 5 team?
Mavs MoneyBall!!
Dallas Stars Examiner!!
poster formerly known as hinduplaya
You have a team of vets and two guys in their prime with Tony Parker. Based on McGrady’s play you’re teetering from the bottom of the top 5 to being a serious contender if he’s back in form. Who’s better than them? The Heat, Magic, Celtic, and the Bulls. Who else? No one. They have a lot of depth.
Second, you agreed with buckets who was arguing for Kidd being an elite PG, therefore you involved yourself into that conversation “idiot”.
You’re actually going to make me look up stats? We all know it’s not hard to screw around with numbers to make it favor somebody. I watch the game, and can use my common sense to see who the more effective player is. If you’re really that dumb and wouldn’t straight-up trade Tony Parker for Jason Kidd, I don’t really know how to reason it to you.
PPG 17.3
RPG 3.8
APG 5.4
SPG 0.6
BPG 0.0
FG% 0.474
FT% 0.595
3P% 0.667
MPG 33.5
Tony Parker 2010 Playoffs^
PPG 8.0
RPG 6.8
APG 7.0
SPG 2.3
BPG 0.2
FG% 0.304
FT% 0.917
3P% 0.321
MPG 40.5
Jason Kidd 2010 Playoff Stats^
Parker was more effective with 6 less minutes of play and coming off an injury. I think that says a lot when someone gets it done in the big boy stages. They play the position differently, but in today’s NBA, Parker is more of a threat and more efficient than Kidd.
By the way just because this is a Mavericks forum, doesn’t mean we have to be homers. I think most of you can at least be a bit mature and consider it from a non-biased view.
well seeing as how tony parker was hurt for 24 games
he had plenty of rest for the playoffs. i don’t give a damn what parker did when compared to kidd in the playoffs. carlisle clearly overused kidd in the regular season, and if you can’t see that they you’re in denial.
kidd played 2,880 minutes regular season minutes, parker played 1,728 regular season minutes
jason kidd is the bus driver that the offense needs, and i wouldn’t trade him for tony parker. might as well have kept devin harris if we wanted a fragile slasher.
i’m not a homer. i get absolutely livid with some of the shit that this organization does, but regardless of if i am, my point is valid. my opinion is that parker is overrated in this case, and you overrate his importance to the spurs. i think kidd is the better point guard if utilized properly. simple as that.
Thank you again, Buckets!
Okay so the total minutes is correct and get this, Tony played 30.9 per game (at least the games he actually played in) and Kidd played 36 per. So that’s 5 and change minutes per game more than Parker who is 9 years younger and got a lot more nights off. Between this and what Buckets already gave you up above I’d say it’s pretty damned clear.
by elbow greater than face on Aug 26, 2010 10:23 PM CDT up reply actions
You don’t come off fresh off an injury like his because you sat out some games. You must be in denial if you think the playoffs don’t matter.
I’ll have Parker on my team over Old Kidd anyday. You are in love with the legend that is Jason Kidd, not the old man that is on this roster.
Why
I love that you get so passionate. But if you look at your comments, almost EVERY ONE of them involves some sort of personal attack on the person who commented before you. We encourage debate, but insulting your fellow MMBers is quite unnecessary. There are ways to disagree without being rude. Please give it a try!
Thanks!
How so? How was any of that a personal attack? Here’s one, you’re biased, therefore blinding your view. It’s also a fact
He's better than a reportedly up to 45 pounds overweight Baron Davis
But I would agree that this ranking of Kidd seems fair and accurate (Kelly Dwyer’s subjective love for the player seems to be the biggest criterion, but I do like most of his observations as a writer unless it comes to certain favorite teams and players). He’s still good, but he can no longer stay physically with the quickest of them.
"Listening to the media only increases your odds of failing at whatever you are doing" - Mark Cuban
JKidd's 3pt % is great
but that is really the only part of his offensive game right now. He can’t drive at all, which I think is a necessary ability for any elite PG. Also, his defense against small point guards is a severe liability.
I like JKidd and what he’s brought to the team, but I think that ranking is fairly accurate.
by JoeyJoeJoeJr.Shabadoo on Aug 25, 2010 7:52 PM CDT reply actions
True he can't score on the drive
but I have seen him pick up some timely fouls on the drive and as long as he can shoot free throws that still counts for something in my book.
As for defending the smaller point guards, he’s not the only one. Seems to me like the only guys who can guard Paul, Rose, Williams, Rondo etc. are other small young point guards. You seen Steve Nash try to defend lately? It aint happening! Does that make him not an elite point guard? I don’t think it does.
by elbow greater than face on Aug 26, 2010 12:24 AM CDT up reply actions
I never thought he was an elite PG at any point.
He can’t shoot the three pointer very well, and Jason struggles running different offense.
Wow
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