Lamar Odom

by KarimTheDream on Jan 15, 2012 4:44 PM CST

So, yeah. Im currently eating my words when it comes to Vince Carter. I have not fully caved in and started to love the guy, but he seems to be a chill locker room influence. I disliked him for what might have been a Diva-like and thuggish persona, but so far he has been a player who has shown nothing but love for the game and effort on the court. He talks on D, and works hard. He doesn't fancy himself a ballhog superstar, yet knows he's here to shoot. I am slowly starting to accept the guy, and I've always at least liked watching him. He's dynamic.

My love for the boys in blue has also gotten me to accept West into the lineup. Rather, I actually like Delonte West. Before Dallas, he didn't seem like a true point guard. However, since joining us, he seems to be starting to become what is a dream of a guard: A great dribble drive threat with passing skills to dish it out when the D collapses. Oh, and he can shoot, too. He's also not a liability on D.

Given a few more weeks, I'll begin to love Vince, as I loved anyone. The problem to me remains Lamar Odom. The problem with Odom is that he is not producing well with us, obviously.

The point of this thread is to discuss Odom, and what Dallas should or should not do to try to garnish success from out players.

Odom is coming off of one of his best years, if not his best. He was the 6th man of the year, yet for us is playing like an 8th or 9th man. Although he has said he doesn't want it as an excuse, he mentioned he lost a dear family member and considered taking the season off. Also, he is in a new team, after being a seemingly content player with LA(lets face it... A guy like Jet who thought he had job security wouldn't be happy if we tried and failed to trade him without his consent) and thus has had to operate under a new system. The triangle offense allowed him to be the point-forward he was meant to be, so he was able to flourish.

So, what do we do? Should we give Odom more time to get used to the offense? Also, here is something wild. Not only for Odom's sake, but for the general sake of Dallas, would it be too terrible of an idea to run some triangle sets? Just a little, for some diversity. If we already do and I just havent noticed, please ignore this paragraph. I really think with our jumpshooters all over the court and guys like Kidd and Odom who are tremendous passers the Triangle might not be a bad choice.

That's about it for my first positive post about Dallas. I'm finally back from my month long vacation to Peru, so I was able to watch Dallas for the first time this season and it made me feel a lot better about everything.

So now, as usual,

GO MAVS

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this won't happen

would it be too terrible of an idea to run some triangle sets?

A terrible Idea? not in the least….the issue is that the “triangle” as I understand it isn’t something that you can just put in when ever you feel like it. If Anything it a hugely complex system of moving parts(think Dallas’ Offense but more rigid)

I could be wrong on this though. I still disagree on the Carter, West and Odom pickups though….while I understand the reason for them, I just feel that they aren’t providing anything that any of the younger guys couldn’t do.

I would Rather had Rolled with the younger Guys, thus giving them valuable game experience…and also if we want to draw those bigger FA’s like Cuban wants, he has to show them that We have someone other than Kidd and Dirk, and that they are young enough to continue to grow.

That is just MY opinion is all

Here’s a theoretical play from 2010: Snap. Tony takes 7 step drop. Tony looks left at Miles, who is doubled, and looks right to where Roy Williams should be…but instead sees Colombo on his back and a Defensive End foaming at the mouth jumping over Marc’s carcass. Tony proceeds to run like hell and look for Witten
-by CotySaxman on Jul 11, 2011 7:50 AM PDT

Now, if somebody doesn’t agree with that, that’s cool. I also don’t agree with the fact that I don’t have $10 million in my bank account. But the fact that I don’t agree with it doesn’t make it any less true.
by One.Cool.Customer on Dec 23, 2010 12:00 AM PST

by I am Ironman!!! on Jan 15, 2012 6:09 PM CST reply actions

I think VC, West, and Odom are doing a good job offensively and defensively.

This is a short season and the Mavs must win as many games as they can. They need their players to gel and get them conditioned. I think Coach Rick is doing the right thing by using the youngsters during garbage time and sometimes in the 3rd quarter. They don’t have much experience and to rely on them too much is a big risk, a risk we can ill afford especially after a poor start. I like how the Mavs build a comfortable lead by the 3rd quarter so the youngsters have the fourth quarter for themselves.

by bleed_blu on Jan 15, 2012 9:38 PM CST up reply actions

Ironman,

I never said I am completely okay with the pickups. Given a time machine, I would definitely choose not to do it. I will say though, I am starting to see production and thus am slowly becoming more and more okay with it.

Alas, the deals are done. They’re here, so we must learn to at least watch them grimace-free.

About the triangle, I am with you in thinking it is a very complex system. But if there is one thing we have it is inteligence and basketball IQ. I don’t think it would hurt to work on it a bit, and just bring it in on 3-5 plays a game at first. If it works, evolve to 10-15 times, but never let it become our complete offense.

If I’m not mistaken the hardest part about the Triangle is having a successful point-forward to lead it, and we have the best in the league in Odom(when playing up to par). The only other problem is that historically, the Triangle has worked best with a dynamic slasher/shooter 2 guard (Jordan, Bryant)… The best we have is Carter

~Karim!

by KarimTheDream on Jan 15, 2012 10:22 PM CST up reply actions

no, triangle is garbage now. you witnessed it being dismantled from dallas during the sweep.

also Odom is fine, he is starting to know his role slowly. there is no rush since its still january, champ.

by go87 on Jan 15, 2012 6:22 PM CST reply actions

Do not be so quick to throw it away

it has withstood the test of time. It is a good offense. And to throw something out the window because of 1 playoff series is very incorrect. The Lakers ranit incredibly for 2 rings and 1 more round. Because it failed once is but a speedbump in its track record. We run the Dirk-Terry 2 man offense. It has worked prety well for years. If it were to fail for 1 series, to throw it away completely would be an idiodic move. Rely less on it? Yeah, that would be acceptable.

We don’t have the time and experience, or the Kobe or Phil, but we have Odom, Dirk, Kidd, and a roster full of brilliant basketball minds.

Also, I never said it needs to become our entire offense. I simply suggested we run it for a few offensive sets a game, is all.

~Karim!

by KarimTheDream on Jan 15, 2012 10:25 PM CST up reply actions

i like and prefer the Carlisle style of coaching. so far its helped the mavs win an championship obviously...

and for doing “the triangle” cause of Odom. only phil jackson used the method well. although he will eventually understand our (the mavs) game. all we need from LO are boards and help defense/offense. nothing too fancy champ.

by go87 on Jan 15, 2012 10:54 PM CST up reply actions

It is hard for me to disagree, because, well, I agree

with 97% of that post. It is exactly what I think.

However, I am simply suggested we introduce the Triangle as a minor offensive set. Think of it like any other play we run during the game. Just run it(after practising it for a while) 3-4 times a game. That is it. Less, even. Just try it like we try any basic play that gets us a jumpshot or layup.

I agree that we don’t need to change our entire game, because it is proven to work… very well.

~Karim!

by KarimTheDream on Jan 15, 2012 11:02 PM CST up reply actions

i see what you are talking about champ. so far the mavs are looking good in the first month of action.

the new players just need to take it one game at a time.

by go87 on Jan 15, 2012 11:10 PM CST up reply actions

Yeah.

Call me a biased fan, but I look at our team, and every night I see no reason why we should lose. I want, no, I expect 110% from each player, because that is what the team owes to us when they put on those jerseys.

Odom is the only one struggling, and I just think the (very) occasional triangle set would make him feel a little more at home. Plus, its not like running the triangle would throw off the rest of the roster. Hell, it might work. Our guys, if anything, are very smart.

~Karim!

by KarimTheDream on Jan 15, 2012 11:52 PM CST up reply actions

Odom has gone through a lot. he was about to retire from the NBA. right now these past games he has been doing good.

nothing too fancy which is good.

by go87 on Jan 16, 2012 12:23 AM CST up reply actions

Please don't call the system garbage

The lakers did not have the parts to run an effective triangle last year. The explosive guard was not nearly explosive enough, the bigs looked toothless and the Dleague bench was exposed. That does not make the triangle bad. If anything, Phil should have seen this coming and adjusted his offensive sets. Failed execution against a superior team, no fault of the triangle. It is a thing of beauty and after tons of reading, I am only now beginning to understand it.

by lewstherin on Jan 16, 2012 3:04 PM CST up reply actions

I agree.

It’s a system meant for sharing the ball.

"The idea is not to block every shot. The idea is to make your opponent believe that you might block every shot."

- Bill Russell

by Marjun Raposon on Jan 17, 2012 10:07 AM CST up reply actions

It wasn't being executed properly and the players effort was poor at best.

Can’t call it dead just for that.

by elbow greater than face on Jan 19, 2012 9:44 PM CST up reply actions

seems like odom hasn't arrived in dallas mentally yet, vc and west are starting to feel

part of the team it looks like, the mavs are slowly building chemistry and are all class acts so no rush only 13 games in, as far as on the court odom is looking better with each game
i have no idea if he’s still doing some reality show but if he is it would probably help if he stopped

by dimitrious on Jan 15, 2012 7:03 PM CST reply actions 1 recs

You know, I was searching for the right way to word it

You nailed it with “He hasn’t arrive mentally”… Mentally. That is the perfect wording. He needs to get his mind on Dallas basketball and out of the gutters.

~Karim!

by KarimTheDream on Jan 15, 2012 10:27 PM CST up reply actions

These are pretty much my thoughts, as well.

by mike_o on Jan 15, 2012 10:44 PM CST up reply actions

Offseason dream scenario

If the Magic and Nets are foolish and we have the chance to get both D-Williams and Howard, here’s what I’d like to see:

- Sign both in the $17m range
- Kidd and Terry come back for up to $5m a year
- Re-sign West and Beaubois at $3m, keep Carter
- Trade Marion away for no salary
- Amnesty Haywood
- Buy out Odom
- Let Mahinmi walk if he won’t take more than 1-2 million – he could get more elsewhere.
- Re-sign Cardinal, Sean Williams and Wright for the minimum. If Yi would come back for the minimum, him too.
- Pick up a few more decent minimum salary players

That puts us around $75m in salary.

Starting lineup:
D-Will
D-West
Vinsanity
D-Nowitzki
D-Howard

Bench:
J-Kidd
JET
Roddy
Sean Williams
Wright
The Janitor
DoJo
rookie draft
etc.

That’s as surefire a Championship lineup as I’ve ever seen. Of course, I’m sure Orlando and NJ will do what they can to keep them or trade them to another team that’s not Dallas. Hell, if I was NJ, I’d offer D-Will to Orlando for some of their players like Ryan Anderson and Jameer Nelson.

by lemonbrigade on Jan 15, 2012 7:29 PM CST reply actions

i'd have Kidd start or play together with D-will, Kidd plays at a higher level even if D-will

can do alot of good things, he hasn’t accomplished all that much

by dimitrious on Jan 15, 2012 7:44 PM CST up reply actions

DWill is good and all but I think Kidd will remain a starter until he retires.

He has proven himself too often for that to change.

by bleed_blu on Jan 15, 2012 9:41 PM CST up reply actions

and why give up Marion? he's so good at so many things and a starter on last year's run

by dimitrious on Jan 15, 2012 7:47 PM CST up reply actions

We probably won't have much choice

His $9 million salary would probably prevent us from getting both (if that’s the option). If we just got one I’d keep him in a heartbeat.

by lemonbrigade on Jan 16, 2012 12:49 AM CST up reply actions

I would like to keep our veteran core: Dirk, Kidd, Terry, and Marion

If DWill and Dwight are planning to team up to win championships then they have a small chance of doing so if they team up at either New Jersey or Orlando. Their best chance is to team up with a team with one superstar already. What I’m kind of worried about is if we do get those big free agents, aren’t we doing that with the risk of losing our depth? I don’t think the Mavs will get rid of LO and if they did, that will be quite a blow to the player. He asked to be traded to the Mavs only to be traded again….yikes. I’m still not sold on Sean Williams, would like to see more of him before I decide if I think he’s a keeper.

by bleed_blu on Jan 15, 2012 9:26 PM CST up reply actions

I vote for giving LO more time. It's only been 13 games. He's been getting better.

I am already a Delonte West fan ever since the game against the Raptors. He shows a lot of effort and I really think the Mavs did a right thing by signing him. I also like what Carter’s showing us.

Don’t know much about the triangle offense but I think we don’t need to use it. Essentially, the Mavs is more of a free-flowing team. Incorporating that offense now, when we have 6 new guys and veterans who are used to using the same type of offense is kind of late, don’t you think?

by bleed_blu on Jan 15, 2012 9:32 PM CST reply actions

Late, yes

but I am not proposing using it as a go-to offense. I am simply saying work on it veeery slightly. Then, if it works, hell, use it for 3-4 plays. That is it. Use it as if it was a regular set play which we run all of the time.

If it works, use it more. If it doesn’t cast it off. All we lost is a few hours of practice.

It seems to me like it is a low risk-high reward. We have Odom, which is rare in the NBA. Possibly the only player who can run the Triangle very, very well. I don’t see why we can’t work on it. If it doesn’t work then we just lost a few hours of practice and some offensive possessions. The reward, however, can be amazing.

~Karim!

by KarimTheDream on Jan 15, 2012 10:30 PM CST up reply actions

The triangle is a very complex system

that no coach other than Phil (with or without Tex Winter) had any success with it. But to run it just 3-4 times a game? It wouldn’t hurt giving it a try, IMO. Other than that, I agree with the general consensus that LO just need more time to be comfortable in this system.

"The idea is not to block every shot. The idea is to make your opponent believe that you might block every shot."

- Bill Russell

by Marjun Raposon on Jan 15, 2012 11:27 PM CST reply actions

My thoughts exactly.

Couldn’t hurt just to try. I hope/believe that the intelligence our experience roster has will be able to make up the the lack of having Phil Jackson.

~Karim!

by KarimTheDream on Jan 15, 2012 11:54 PM CST up reply actions

I see what you are saying Karim

I am not sure if you can just run the Triangle 3-4 times a games… as I said in my previous post, I think that it is something that a Team has to Fully Commit to to utilize properly….but again I could be Wrong on that…..

like you said wouldn’t hurt to try…..

by I am Ironman!!! on Jan 16, 2012 12:19 AM CST up reply actions

Some time ago

I saw Sebastian Pruiti at NBAPlaybook.com break down some teams’ offensive schemes which incorporate some elements of the triangle and not really using it as it is, and use it only in spurts. Maybe this could work?

"The idea is not to block every shot. The idea is to make your opponent believe that you might block every shot."

- Bill Russell

by Marjun Raposon on Jan 16, 2012 12:52 AM CST up reply actions

Maybe

Anything to make odom feel at home. I mean, he’s such a good player. It’s a shame to waste him. We are 8-6 now, what could we be if he produced? 10-4 maybe?

Call me crazy but I believe we are a productive Odom away from being a front runner. Right now we are a second tier team. A lingerer. Top 10 in the league, but not quite championship caliber. I’m not saying this roster sans Odom can’t win, just saying it would be a long shot, as opposed to a good bet if odom can return to a 15-7-5 guy

~Karim!

by KarimTheDream on Jan 17, 2012 12:26 AM CST via mobile up reply actions

I like the idea but

we already have guys that aren’t up to par with this system, we don’t really have the time to learn another one until the offseason. Even then it is kinda complicated and we’d need a passing big man to run it. I can’t see Haywood, Mahinmi or Wright doing what Pau did in that system but I could be wrong.

by elbow greater than face on Jan 19, 2012 9:49 PM CST up reply actions

I learned a lot about Odom, especially his pre-season off-court struggles

in this must-read article by Jeff Caplan

"The idea is not to block every shot. The idea is to make your opponent believe that you might block every shot."

- Bill Russell

by Marjun Raposon on Jan 16, 2012 2:26 AM CST reply actions

I think Odom's under production has been vastly exaggerated

Yes, his shot is not there. That will come, and given the time he has had over the summer, it is not surprising that he is in a rut.

What I find most encouraging is his beautiful passes to the cutters (yawn feasts off of this) and a lot of passes to team mates which they don’t expect. So, he is trying, he is not a naturally selfish player and that is good enough for me right now.

Time will heal all of his ills. I say we stop fussing, let him take and miss his shots now rather than later. Worry if you have to in March.

ps: Strangely enough, I had a good feeling about the VC signing like

by lewstherin on Jan 16, 2012 3:15 PM CST reply actions

by lewstherin on Jan 18, 2012 11:05 AM CST up reply actions

you can still have first world problems in a third world country my friend

I’m grand. taking a break, then back to work in a few weeks. how goes the biz??

Managing Editor of MavsMoneyball.com

by LJRotter on Jan 18, 2012 4:32 PM CST up reply actions

work = aspca?

Biz is not going so great. Too many close misses. And each time it happens, it feels like a punch to the gut. Getting harder and harder to pick up the pieces and keep going.

by lewstherin on Jan 19, 2012 5:11 AM CST up reply actions